# Infant genetal mutilation is a blood sacrifice to the demon Yahwe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321 "2018-11-10T20:59:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/241 "2018-11-16T02:10:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No no no no, it’s fine, honestly. It’s only because sometimes people don’t— [_sniff_] don’t read my— my links. [_gulp_] That I’ve worked so hard to find. [_stifled sobbing_] > > No I’m all right, really, I’m all right. Yes. You were asking: > > Oh _WUH HUHH HUHH WAHHHH_, [_gasp_] _BUH HUH HUH HOOO HOOO HOOOO_… > > Sorry, sorry!.. Better now, thanks. Anyway, from back in [post #142](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21320883&postcount=142), replying to [_choke_] **Ambivalid** : > > From the linked article: > And then you… then [you promised:](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21320915&postcount=146) > [_silent weeping_] Ok ill own up to failing to follow thru on my due diligence. 🙂 However, I’m still unclear as to what the rationale or purpose is behind this “nicking or scratching” form of FGM. Why is it done at all? Why was it ever done? It seems truly and literally pointless, in the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/242 "2018-11-16T02:33:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No no no no, it’s fine, honestly. It’s only because sometimes people don’t— [_sniff_] don’t read my— my links. [_gulp_] That I’ve worked so hard to find. [_stifled sobbing_] > > No I’m all right, really, I’m all right. Yes. You were asking: > > Oh _WUH HUHH HUHH WAHHHH_, [_gasp_] _BUH HUH HUH HOOO HOOO HOOOO_… > > Sorry, sorry!.. Better now, thanks. Anyway, from back in [post #142](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21320883&postcount=142), replying to [_choke_] **Ambivalid** : > > From the linked article: > And then you… then [you promised:](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21320915&postcount=146) > [_silent weeping_] Well ive now read thru both of those links. They were somewhat clarifying for me but not completely. The “nicking or scraping” forms of FGM are primarily performed in Indonesia while the more drastic versions are found in Africa. The article did attribute the practice of these “minor” forms of FGM primarily to religious belief but didnt go into much detail. What is the nature of the religious belief that leads to be believing girls’ clitoral hoods need to be inflicted with extremely minor, temporary damage? That’s what i can’t wrap my brain around. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/243 "2018-11-16T03:24:33Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > The article did attribute the practice of these “minor” forms of FGM primarily to religious belief but didnt go into much detail. What is the nature of the religious belief that leads to be believing girls’ clitoral hoods need to be inflicted with extremely minor, temporary damage? That’s what i can’t wrap my brain around. Good question, which IMHO applies to the tradition of male circumcision as well. Sure, we can retcon the practice of trimming or removing the foreskin as some kind of Bronze-Age-medicine preventive/hygiene approach, but it is not at all easy for me to understand the process of rationalizing it as a divine commandment. As for the religious motivations for FGC in general, here are some remarks from a [NIH article on FGC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582648/): > [@](#): > > The origins of FGC are a mystery. It is thought to have existed in ancient Egypt, Ethiopia, and Greece. The practice transcends religion, geography, and socioeconomic status. Although FGC predates Islam, a small number of Muslims have adopted the practice as a religious requirement. As late as the 1960s, American obstetricians performed clitoridectomies to treat erotomania, lesbianism, hysteria, and clitoral enlargement. […] > > Reasons that parents and practitioners give for the procedure include rite of passage, preserving chastity, ensuring marriageability, improving fertility, religious requirement, hygiene, and enhancing sexual pleasure for men. And specifically about [Type IV in Indonesia](http://islamicreliefcanada.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/IRC_FGC_Report.pdf): > [@](#): > > Interviewees described the FGC procedure to be a slight cutting, scraping or scratching of the upper part of the clitoris […] > > There was consensus amongst those interviewees who agreed with FGC that if a girl did not undergo circumcision, her Islamic duties such as prayers, fasting and charity were not accepted. Dr Salma, a Sharia lecturer from the State Institute of Islamic Studies in Padang, believed that the tradition of FGC plays a significant role in the Islamic spiritual cultivation of children. Based on her direct observation in Payakumbuh, West Sumatra, she concludes that FGC is more about religious ritual than the ‘cutting’ itself: “In the ceremony, the cutting process is very brief. Most of the time, the dukun [traditional midwife] advises the girl that she is a full Muslim and must perform her religious responsibilities. After the dukun observes the girl’s ablution and prayers … she reminds the girl to respect her parents, to pray and fast, and to observe her Islamic obligations.” […] > > One male cultural leader in Lombok emphasised that FGC is understood to be a purifying ritual and not a ‘circumcision.’ He argued that parents in Indonesia feel obliged to perform FGC on their daughters so that they are equal to their male counterparts when it comes to ‘honour.’ […] > > Despite this perception, only three participants in this study thought that a circumcised girl’s behaviour and physical growth were different from that of an uncircumcised girl. In addition, the findings also disclosed that there was no stigma attached to uncircumcised girls at school, primarily because FGC is now carried out at a pre-school age and because it is a topic rarely discussed within Indonesian society. > > While research studies have shown that girls and women who are uncircumcised are looked down upon in society to a certain degree, the findings of this study found that women and girls in Indonesia who do not undertake FGC are seen as ‘unclean’ but do not necessarily suffer from any overt negative repercussions as a result – such as difficulties in getting married or being employed. > > This may be primarily an urban phenomenon as this study found that in some rural communities in Padang, it is mandatory for a woman to undergo FGC before marriage […] So I guess we’re looking at symbolic perceptions of “cleanliness” and “righteousness”, possibly influenced by Islamic religious justifications for male circumcision? I don’t fully understand any of these arguments, but we need to remember that a lot of traditional cultures perform body modifications on childen as well as adults, and all of them have what they consider valid reasons for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/244 "2018-11-16T03:25:53Z")
Hmm, that link says: > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, direct observation of FGM procedures in 2001-2002 showed that it certainly involves pain, rubbing and scraping (24.3%). There was real genital cutting (49.2% incision and 22.4% excision). There was also stretching (3%) and a small proportion of pricking and piercing (1.1%). I can’t get excited about the 24.3% that is just rubbing and scraping, not the 1.1% that is pricking and piercing, and probably not the 3% that is stretching. Parents do all sorts of stuff to their children without consent. They get them vaccinated, they chose what language(s) to expose the child to. They choose what to feed their kids, and how much, and what sorts of toys and tools their kids can play with, and… these are not things that can be undone, either. If parents are doing stuff that is culturally appropriate and not obviously harmful, you know, I think they are being parents… The 22.4% excision (presumably of the clitoris) strikes me as obviously and significantly harmful, and that does concern me. The 49.2% that is “cutting” probably varies from minor cutting that is probably within the range of “not that harmful” that I’d be okay with, through more serious cutting that leaves real damage. But it’s hard to know from such a vague description. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/245 "2018-11-16T03:33:53Z")
Ok. It also says that the practice is more about the religious ritual than the cutting (or scraping) itself. If this is true, why the need to actually inflict any physical damage at all? Why wouldnt a ritual that is identical to current practices, just without any physical damage (replaced perhaps by more symbolic actions) not be just as acceptable? Just thoughts on the matter. Youve already been very helpful. I appreciate it. ETA: this is in response to Kimstu’s post one post up from the post before this one. That post got in before i could post mine. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/246 "2018-11-16T03:50:49Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > If this is true, why the need to actually inflict any physical damage at all? Why wouldnt a ritual that is identical to current practices, just without any physical damage (replaced perhaps by more symbolic actions) not be just as acceptable? Eh, why don’t religiously observant people consider **any** particular ritual to be replaceable by “more symbolic actions”? Why don’t Christians taking communion avoid risks of oral bacterial/viral transmission by merely miming the action of drinking from the communion cup instead of actually drinking from it, for example? That said, there apparently are Southeast Asian Muslim communities that perform purely symbolic equivalents of FGC (see pages 132ff. of [this article](http://bir.brandeis.edu/bitstream/handle/10192/31474/Raghavan.pdf), for instance) such as holding a peeled turmeric root over the clitoris and cutting the root instead of the flesh, or smearing chicken blood on the clitoris, or simply wiping it with antiseptic. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/247 "2018-11-16T04:36:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Eh, why don’t religiously observant people consider **any** particular ritual to be replaceable by “more symbolic actions”? Why don’t Christians taking communion avoid risks of oral bacterial/viral transmission by merely miming the action of drinking from the communion cup instead of actually drinking from it, for example? True. But Christian communion rituals seems like a questionable tradition to use as an example of religious customs that could stand to be more symbolic and less literal. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/248 "2018-11-16T06:39:52Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Really? Because estimates I’ve seen suggest about [100 deaths from circumcision-related complications annually in the US](https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/boyhood-studies/4/1/bhs040106.xml). > > More general studies: > [Factors Associated With Early Deaths Following Neonatal Male Circumcision in the United States, 2001 to 2010](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0009922818790060?journalCode=cpja) > > [Rates of Adverse Events Associated With Male Circumcision in US Medical Settings, 2001 to 2010](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/1870232) Those are very apropos peer-reviewed links. If I understand properly from the abstracts, these are estimated statistical deaths - those dying tend to have comorbidities. Perhaps that explains the vast difference in the figures cited. Still, I take the anti-circ case more seriously now, as the potential cons are heavier than I thought. > [@Blalron](#): > > The AAP is out of synch with world opinion on this issue. Read this rebuttal, published in the international journal Pediatrics: [Cultural Bias In The AAP’s 2012 Technical Report And Policy Statement On Circumcision](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/131/4/796). You overstate I think. The article expresses disagreement with the AAP, which is normal science. My skim of the article suggested that while representatives of various medical societies may disagree with the AAP, no medical society has taken an official position in conflict with the AAP’s recommendation. So color me unimpressed. Most recommendations will have dissenters. If you can find a foreign medical association with a different POV (and they very well may exist) let us know. Fighting ignorance and all that. For the moment, I’m sticking with the AAP’s cost/benefit analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/249 "2018-11-16T09:17:28Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Ok. It also says that the practice is more about the religious ritual than the cutting (or scraping) itself. If this is true, why the need to actually inflict any physical damage at all? Why wouldnt a ritual that is identical to current practices, just without any physical damage (replaced perhaps by more symbolic actions) not be just as acceptable? Just thoughts on the matter. Youve already been very helpful. I appreciate it. It could be some of the minor forms of it are a _reduced_ form of FGM where the nearly-but-not-quite-entirely-symbolic nicking/scraping/rubbing is done in place of a prior, more severe form of FGM. There are people in Africa who, instead of trying to ban the practice outright (which doesn’t work too well, people being people) opt instead for harm reduction who try to convince parents to replace the more extreme forms with less damaging ones. Sometimes that works. Or, it could be that it’s always been the very minor form of FGM and they refuse to eliminate that minor damage and drop of blood because _to them_ it’s a vitally important part of the ceremony. Eliminate that and while you see no difference _to them_ it completely alters the meaning of what’s being done. But you could say “why do that?” about a lot of uncomfortable rituals people engage in. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/250 "2018-11-16T10:48:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The argument I’ve always been taught is that female circumcision has been shown to be clearly harmful, while male circumcision has not, and even has some (extremely minor) benefits. As such, I think there is definitely an argument that allowing one for freedom of religion purposes is okay, but the other is not. Freedom of religion is always balanced against harm to others in a free society: you could not use freedom of religion to defend human sacrifice, for example. Since female circumcision is illegal to perform, how would we ever study it to learn whether it has “benefits”? And if we did find there were benefits to FGM, would that suddenly make it okay? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/251 "2018-11-16T11:24:05Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Still, I take the anti-circ case more seriously now, as the potential cons are heavier than I thought. You overstate I think. The article expresses disagreement with the AAP, which is normal science. My skim of the article suggested that while representatives of various medical societies may disagree with the AAP, no medical society has taken an official position in conflict with the AAP’s recommendation. So color me unimpressed. Most recommendations will have dissenters. > > If you can find a foreign medical association with a different POV (and they very well may exist) let us know. Fighting ignorance and all that. For the moment, I’m sticking with the AAP’s cost/benefit analysis. Okay, wow. I guess it takes a lot to impress you. That Pediatrics article seemed like a fairly stunning rebuke to me, concluding that circumcising children is a violation of medical ethics! But I’ll give you more. [Here’s a list](https://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/for-professionals/medical-organization-statements/) (courtesy of Doctors Opposing Circumcision): > [@](#): > > Non-U.S. medical organization statements on circumcision > > Canadian Paediatric Society (CPS) (2015) > The CPS does not recommend the routine circumcision of every newborn male. It further states that when “medical necessity is not established, …interventions should be deferred until the individual concerned is able to make their own choices.” > > Royal Dutch Medical Association (KNMG) (2010) > The KNMG states “there is no convincing evidence that circumcision is useful or necessary in terms of prevention or hygiene.” It regards the non-therapeutic circumcision of male minors as a violation of physical integrity, and argues that boys should be able to make their own decisions about circumcision. > > The Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP) (2010) > The RACP states that routine infant circumcision is not warranted in Australia and New Zealand. It argues that, since cutting children involves physical risks which are undertaken for the sake of merely psychosocial benefits or debatable medical benefits, it is ethically questionable whether parents ought to be able to make such a decision for a child. > > British Medical Association (BMA) (2006) > The BMA considers that the evidence concerning health benefits from non-therapeutic circumcision is insufficient as a justification for doing it. It suggests that it is “unethical and inappropriate” to circumcise for therapeutic reasons when effective and less invasive alternatives exist. > > Expert statement from the German Association of Pediatricians (BVKJ) (2012) > In testimony to the German legislature, the President of the BVKJ has stated, “there is no reason from a medical point of view to remove an intact foreskin from …boys unable to give their consent.” It asserts that boys have the same right to physical integrity as girls in German law, and, regarding non-therapeutic circumcision, that parents’ right to freedom of religion ends at the point where the child’s right to physical integrity is infringed upon. > > In addition, medical organizations and children’s ombudsmen from a number of other countries, including Belgium, Finland, Norway, Slovenia, South Africa, Denmark, and Sweden, have gone on record in opposition to non-therapeutic circumcision of boys. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/252 "2018-11-16T11:51:03Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Trafalgar Laura: > > Sorry, but you can’t do that without a major impact on the practice of Judaism. The commandment is to perform the rite on a week-old baby boy. This is such an important part of the commandment that it even overrides the prohibitions of Sabbath. You take away the ability of Jews to do that, you’re basically killing freedom of religion in America (or whichever country adopts such a law, I can’t assume any given participant here is American). Nope. _You_ are imposing your religion on someone who for obvious reasons doesn’t have one, and without his consent. That’s the opposite of freedom of religion. Killing freedom of religion would be preventing you, by your own choice and consent, as an adult, from getting circumcized. Once again, if the commandment was instead to flog people you meet in the street, would preventing you from doing that be “killing freedom of religion”? You don’t have the right to flog or mutilate anybody, let alone babies, just because your religion says that you should. Protecting the bodily integrity of helpless babies against parents who somehow think they should have the right to mutilate them as they see fit because of their weird beliefs is definitely part of society’s job. And once again too, if this religious tradition was a newly imported one from some remote country, you’d have lost custody of the child and been sent to jail for child abuse, nobody would question it, and everybody would applaud, religiously motivated or not. The fact that, in this day an age, in western countries, given our current moral standarts, ritual mutilation of infants is tolerated and a subject of debate is properly incredible. People, in particular progressives, who argues for allowing circumcision on religious ground must suffer from a massive case of cognitive dissonance. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/253 "2018-11-16T12:10:09Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Nope. _You_ are imposing your religion on someone who for obvious reasons doesn’t have one That is not our view. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Sorry, but you can’t do that without a major impact on the practice of Judaism. The commandment is to perform the rite on a week-old baby boy. This is such an important part of the commandment that it even overrides the prohibitions of Sabbath. You take away the ability of Jews to do that, you’re basically killing freedom of religion in America (or whichever country adopts such a law, I can’t assume any given participant here is American). And the Muslims. These threads always demonstrate why the Jews and the Muslims should make peace, as the totalitarian effacement of all deviation habits of the christian thinking have only been secularised, they have not in reality changed. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/254 "2018-11-16T12:46:14Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > That is not our view. Who do you claim to speak for when you say “our” > [@](#): > > These threads always demonstrate why the Jews and the Muslims should make peace, as the totalitarian effacement of all deviation habits of the christian thinking have only been secularised, they have not in reality changed. I personally find the concept of physical branding at birth to be deeply entwined with totalitarian tendencies. Enforced physical appearance, enforced behaviour, enforced thoughts, enforced worship or praise. My opposition to the enforced circumcision of children is not in any way “christian”. It stems from fairly mundane humanist and secular principles that mean I want everyone free to believe, worship, speak and act as they wish right up until the point where that has a material effect on someone else. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/255 "2018-11-16T13:13:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I have heard it said that circumcision results in desensitizing the “German helmet”. Which results in a longer time frame for the actual boinking, the space between arousal and the uncurling of the toes. I have it on reliable authority that many women prefer this. I think many men would volunteer such an accommodation, as we are generous and thoughtful. Those many men would make a big mistake. There’s no doubt that women would tend to prefer a boinking of a “normal” duration over a 15 seconds one. But if you think that “longer” is always better, you’re sorely mistaken. Being unable to achieve orgasm within a “normal” timeframe and with a “normal” level of energy put into it due to a low sensitivity if the glans is a real issue, and in case you’d think otherwise, also for the female partner. No woman I have been intimate with has enjoyed being with a partner who lasts too long and/or has difficulties achieving orgasm. After a time, the prolonged “boinking” becomes not the slightest bit enjoyable, and the lack of pleasure of the male partner a concern. The only “solution” is for the man to give up trying to have an orgasm himself during intercourse, and in fact this won’t really satisfy his partner either, generally, since they generally take satisfaction in their partner enjoying himself too instead of acting like a living dildo. Contrarily to what you think (and seem to find funny) women in general would prefer a partner who comes too soon over this. Which isn’t very surprising if you spend 5 minutes actually thinking about it. And this was exposed in the link I posted previously stating that _both_ men and women have a marked decrease in their sexual satisfaction when the man has reduced sensitivity due to circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/256 "2018-11-16T13:41:33Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Since female circumcision is illegal to perform, how would we ever study it to learn whether it has “benefits”? And if we did find there were benefits to FGM, would that suddenly make it okay? Actually, supporters of FGM have pointed at medical benefits, in particular reduced risk of contracting a STD, especially AIDS. I wouldn’t remember on what basis, but the claims are out there. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/257 "2018-11-16T13:43:40Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > That is not our view Then , tell me what your view is, about it? Do babies enthusiastically ask to be circumcised in order to properly follow god’s commandments, in your world? If not, then this religious practice is definitely imposed onto them. Of course, muslims circumcising later have the fig leaf excuse that the kid can actually consent to the procedure (absolutely without any kind of peer, parental, social, cultural and religious pressure, I’m sure). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/258 "2018-11-16T13:53:31Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > These threads always demonstrate why the Jews and the Muslims should make peace, as the totalitarian effacement of all deviation habits of the christian thinking have only been secularised, they have not in reality changed. That’s not “Christian” thinking. That’s secular thinking in opposition of religious obscurantism. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/259 "2018-11-16T14:33:32Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Well going from rates as high as 90% in the 70s to rates arpund the 50% mark today (at least according to the sources ive read) implies to me that perhaps parents _are_ more informed today than in decades past. Societal change (usually) progresses frustratingly slow. But we seem to be moving continously in the direction of being against pointless (and potentially harmful) circumcision. 80% of males currently alive in the U.S. may be cut but only ~50% of infants undergo the procedure today. Progress. One thing I’m uncertain about is whether this is because people are actually changing their minds in response to new information, or because the USA has a growing Hispanic population that doesn’t have a cultural habit of circumcising. I think there’s still plenty of reason to be depressed if the non-Hispanic white population is still circumcising at high rates. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/260 "2018-11-16T14:54:05Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > That’s not “Christian” thinking. That’s secular thinking in opposition of religious obscurantism. it is the typical western european totalitarian one-way thinking. For this reason no religious minority can ever be safe among you. You rebrand it “secular thinking” as you want. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=14)