# Infant genetal mutilation is a blood sacrifice to the demon Yahwe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321 "2018-11-10T20:59:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/421 "2018-11-24T03:32:17Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And finally about cultural issues involved, but since you’re not telling what cultural issues you’re referring to, it’s difficult to take that as a proper argument. I too see a cultural issue at work, and I mentioned it many times : “FMG is done by those other people from elsewhere, so obviously wrong, how can people think they have the right to cut a baby’s genitals. Circumcision is done by me/my neighbors, so I need to think really, really hard before deciding whether it’s right or wrong for us to cut a baby’s genitals. Probably right, or at least inconsequential” I think this is a very accurate surmisal for most people in the mainstream. For left wingers, who are legion on this board (personally, I identify as center-left BTW), it gets more complicated: they usually lean more toward condemning things culturally endorsed by white Westerners, and toward cutting major slack toward any practice endorsed by non-Westerners and particularly by Musims. But left wingers are also big on women’s rights (a value I share), so it gets tricky. With other issues where those two values come in conflict, they generally lean toward not condemning non-Western cultural practices, so I’m actually a little surprised we don’t see more of that on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/422 "2018-11-24T09:49:05Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I think this is a very accurate surmisal for most people in the mainstream. For left wingers, who are legion on this board (personally, I identify as center-left BTW), it gets more complicated: they usually lean more toward condemning things culturally endorsed by white Westerners, and toward cutting major slack toward any practice endorsed by non-Westerners and particularly by Musims. But don’t Leftists also keep telling us that the USA needs to be more like Europe, particularly the Scandinavian countries? [Doctors in Denmark have declared circumcision unethical.](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/denmarks-29000-doctors-declare-circumcision-of-healthy_b_58753ec1e4b08052400ee6b3) Not a wishy washy “we don’t recommend it”. A violation of the Hippocratic oath of “do no harm.” > [@Danish Medical Association](#): > > Circumcision of boys without a medical indication is ethically unacceptable when the procedure is carried out without informed consent from the person undergoing the surgery. Therefore, circumcision should not be performed before the boy is 18 years old and able to decide whether this is an operation he wants. [Iceland has contemplated a ban.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iceland-s-proposed-ban-circumcision-rattles-jews-muslims-n910541) Doesn’t look like it will pass for now. But it’s a sign of progress that it’s even being talked about. The tiny Jewish community on the island completely freaked out and compared it to Nazi Germany, of course. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/423 "2018-11-24T11:11:26Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > If you want to talk about male circumcision here, fine. I have no desire to hijack the conversation to FGM. Unfortunately, some people don’t feel the same way. As I said earlier, I don’t believe they can be separated. The Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment won’t allow it. Even if you were completely indifferent to male suffering, and were concerned only with protecting girls, feminists may be faced with a choice: protect both, or protect neither. We don’t need to treat social justice like it’s a zero sum contest. It would be easy to pass laws that protect both sexes. Are you afraid that males are going to hog all the justice? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/424 "2018-11-24T12:07:25Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I think this is a very accurate surmisal for most people in the mainstream. For left wingers, who are legion on this board (personally, I identify as center-left BTW), it gets more complicated: they usually lean more toward condemning things culturally endorsed by white Westerners, and toward cutting major slack toward any practice endorsed by non-Westerners and particularly by Musims. But left wingers are also big on women’s rights (a value I share), so it gets tricky. With other issues where those two values come in conflict, they generally lean toward not condemning non-Western cultural practices, so I’m actually a little surprised we don’t see more of that on this issue. > [@Blalron](#): > > But don’t Leftists also keep telling us that the USA needs to be more like Europe, particularly the Scandinavian countries? [Doctors in Denmark have declared circumcision unethical.](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/denmarks-29000-doctors-declare-circumcision-of-healthy_b_58753ec1e4b08052400ee6b3) Not a wishy washy “we don’t recommend it”. A violation of the Hippocratic oath of “do no harm.” These are putting the cart before the horse. Most real people - as opposed to politicians, pundits, and Internet trolls - fall on the political spectrum because of their views, rather than the other way around. So unless they otherwise mention something about women’s rights, trying to be more like Europe by default, or positively mentioning Musims, I wouldn’t hazard a guess at how these issues would inform their views on non-medical child circumcision. For instance I think we should be more like Europe’s _health care system_, not because it’s European but it works, and that doesn’t mean I endorse every single one of their medical practices either! To use an extreme example from the other side of the globe, I think we can also look at South Korea’s universal health care as yet more evidence that America should be pursuing it, but I don’t believe in Fan Death! ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/425 "2018-11-24T12:08:21Z")
Male circumcision harms women too: [according to a Danish study](http://sciencenordic.com/male-circumcision-leads-bad-sex-life), women with circumcised partners are more likely to be sexually unfulfilled and experience pain during sex. > [@](#): > > “It appears that women with circumcised men are twice as likely to be sexually frustrated. They experience a three-fold risk of frequent difficulties in achieving orgasm, and an eight-fold risk of feeling pain during intercourse – also known as dyspareunia.” ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/426 "2018-11-24T12:55:45Z")
Eric Clopper, a Jewish man, was [fired from his job](https://www.brendonmarotta.com/2697/eric-clopper-fired-from-harvard-for-circumcision-stage-show/) at Harvard after giving a presentation “Sex & Circumcision: An American Love Story”. I’ll put the link in a spoiler box because it contains some mature content. It’s 2 hours and 10 minutes long. [Sex & Circumcision: An American Love Story by Eric Clopper](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCuy163srRc&t=2520s) If you want to know why more people aren’t speaking out on this, it’s because Intactivists hold a view that’s going to offend a lot of people in America today. Raising your voice on this issue can get you fired, and it can cause you to be estranged from your own family. Most people are employed “At will”. Your employer can fire you for any reason, or for no reason. Also, most Americans have minimal savings, and [can’t come up with even $1000 dollars on short notice.](https://www.fool.com/retirement/2018/01/18/could-you-come-up-with-1000-tomorrow-more-than-60.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/427 "2018-11-24T13:15:19Z")
Then you can unite and develop the[robots](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=858560), to overthrow the system. since the last time you engaged on this crusade [did not generate the answers you wanted](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=838859) from the actual respondents, it seems we have to endure another round of the preaching… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/428 "2018-11-24T13:26:06Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If you want to know why more people aren’t speaking out on this, it’s because Intactivists hold a view that’s going to offend a lot of people in America today. Raising your voice on this issue can get you fired, and it can cause you to be estranged from your own family. Most people are employed “At will”. Your employer can fire you for any reason, or for no reason. Also, most Americans have minimal savings, and [can’t come up with even $1000 dollars on short notice.](https://www.fool.com/retirement/2018/01/18/could-you-come-up-with-1000-tomorrow-more-than-60.aspx) What? I can be fired for trying to talk about penises with co-workers and customers? I’m shocked! Imagine trying to talk at length about the sensitivity of my penis with a customer, then being cut short by the boss! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/429 "2018-11-24T13:29:39Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Then you can unite and develop the[robots](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=858560), to overthrow the system. since the last time you engaged on this crusade [did not generate the answers you wanted](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=838859) from the actual respondents, it seems we have to endure another round of the preaching… Heh. Thank you! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/430 "2018-11-24T13:50:07Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > You maybe, but in previous threads on the topic, there was a clear reluctance to express the idea that even the mildest forms of FMG could be tolerated. People would rather demand that no comparison would be made between FMG and circumcision and would attack any mention of these minor forms of FMG in a circumcision thread… Naw, First, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone on this board who is gung-ho for circumcision. The most positive seem to hold the position “it’s not a big enough deal physically to outlaw it, since it’s very important for religious and cultural reasons to some people.” They typical response here from a circumcised man is “I wouldn’t do it to my kid, but I’m fine with my own penis.” > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Who said I approve of either? I think male circumsision, except for medical reasons, is generally stupid and pointless, as would be what, Type 1 of FGM? Again, only if it’s a medical necessity. But that’s not what I’m upset about it. > > Somehow, I doubt that. Mainly because the topic rarely returns to FGM. It’s not, “well, the mildest form isn’t much different from male circumcision,” and you know it. And it’s not even “type 1” that is like male circumcision. It’s type 1a. Type 1b (which the interwebs tell me is more common than type 1a, although perhaps that’s not true in Indonesia) involves chopping off the head of the clitoris. Like chopping off the head of the penis. Rather more extensive than male circumcision, as is done legally in the US. Then there are types 2 and 3 (again, my interwebs tell me these are more common than type 1) which involve excising the whole clitoris, or doing that and also removing a lot of the external labia and sewing everything shut. If you can’t see that a type 3 FGM is a much more damaging procedure than a typical male circumcision… Well that discussion probably belongs in the pit. I’m actually really curious what was done in the recent case that went to court. Because the actual facts seem relevant to me. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/431 "2018-11-24T17:09:07Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Eric Clopper, a Jewish man, was [fired from his job](https://www.brendonmarotta.com/2697/eric-clopper-fired-from-harvard-for-circumcision-stage-show/) at Harvard after giving a presentation “Sex & Circumcision: An American Love Story”. I’ll put the link in a spoiler box because it contains some mature content. It’s 2 hours and 10 minutes long. > > [Sex & Circumcision: An American Love Story by Eric Clopper](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCuy163srRc&t=2520s) For those of us who aren’t interested in a 2 hour video about foreskins, I did some googling for a less biased site. And gee, I can’t [IMAGINE](https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/5/3/eric-clopper-production/) why he was fired: > [@](#): > > The Jews—I know, I’m one of them—are an unmasked genital mutilation cult,” Clopper said, according to the videos. “That is why we are so clannish. It is our shared delusion of superiority that we must uphold to maintain our perverted tribal identity.” > > At other points in the videos, Clopper claimed “the Jews” had “raped” him and that Judaism has a “demonstrably evil influence” on the United States. He also vowed he would “expend every breath in my body” to tear “this covenant to pieces,” likely referencing the bond individuals of the Jewish faith believe they hold with God—a bond signified in part by circumcision. > > Clopper said in the videos his speech Wednesday marks his “official declaration of war on our fucking covenant” and promised he would recruit an “army from our generation to wage it.” He also said he will “force” Jewish individuals to “comply” with his demand they stop circumcising their children. :dubious: (Oh, did I mention he stripped down nude while doing this antisemitic ranting?) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/432 "2018-11-24T17:59:29Z")
Wow, I can’t imagine why a university might have fired him… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2018, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/433 "2018-11-25T06:22:53Z")
Oh, more on [Mr. Clopper](https://www.eliungar.com/circumcision/2018/8/8/on-eric-clopper-and-misdirected-anger). Not only was it completely antisemitic and inappropriate, but it was also totally inaccurate. And this is a guy who AGREES with the anti-circumcision movement. You’re definitely NOT helping your cause, **Blalron**. Quite the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2018, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/434 "2018-11-25T13:38:41Z")
I would rather have been molested by a pedophile as an infant. If my genitals were merely fondled, but not damaged. Maybe even a lubed digit in my anus. It still would have been monstrously evil, but I’d still have my whole body. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/435 "2018-11-25T14:18:32Z")
Et voilà, in all the equilibrium, what is needed to evaluate the demarche. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/436 "2018-11-25T14:56:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What? I can be fired for trying to talk about penises with co-workers and customers? I’m shocked! Imagine trying to talk at length about the sensitivity of my penis with a customer, then being cut short by the boss! You’re not getting it, Czarcasm. I understand employers need to regulate how employees behave on the clock. But people can be fired for what they say off the clock. That’s the problem I have with at will employment. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/437 "2018-11-25T15:09:59Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh, more on [Mr. Clopper](https://www.eliungar.com/circumcision/2018/8/8/on-eric-clopper-and-misdirected-anger). Not only was it completely antisemitic and inappropriate, but it was also totally inaccurate. I reviewed your linked article, and it does make some good points. I think Clopper may have gone a little bit off the rails with his Anti-Judaism. I think it’s more useful from a strategic standpoint to focus on Doctors, not Mohels, because they perform the vast majority of circumcisions in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/438 "2018-11-25T15:19:52Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Then you can unite and develop the[robots](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=858560), to overthrow the system. since the last time you engaged on this crusade [did not generate the answers you wanted](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=838859) from the actual respondents, it seems we have to endure another round of the preaching… Oh wow, thanks! I’d forgotten those threads. Including testimony from a guy who was circumcised as an adult who who said “sex isn’t very different”. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/439 "2018-11-25T15:23:46Z")
There’s a difference between anti-semitism and criticism of the religion of Judaism. Many of the strongest voices in the Intactivist movement are Jewish themselves. They obviously don’t hate all Jews as a race. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/440 "2018-11-25T15:25:54Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I would rather have been molested by a pedophile as an infant. If my genitals were merely fondled, but not damaged. Maybe even a lubed digit in my anus. It still would have been monstrously evil, but I’d still have my whole body. I’m sorry you are unhappy with your body. I know you want every other circumcised man to be unhappy, too, but the facts are that most are fine with it. I suspect there are more constructive things you could do than dwell on your missing foreskin. Have you considered therapy? > [@](#): > > God, grant me the Serenity, to accept the things I can not change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference. I know you want to protect others from what happened to you, but you might want to start by healing yourself, first. And with today’s technology, this is a thing you can’t change. But you CAN change how you feel about it. And on the “boys of the future” front, I think circumcision is becoming less common anyway, for an abundance of reasons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=23)