# Infant genetal mutilation is a blood sacrifice to the demon Yahwe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321 "2018-11-10T20:59:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/81 "2018-11-12T06:06:52Z")
Username checks out… ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/82 "2018-11-12T06:09:26Z")
If only I could find an article about this on the internet… _Checks message board_. Ah yes, one Cecil Adams penned a column on circumcision in 1994. [The last word on circumcision - The Straight Dope](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2358/last-word-on-circumcision/) Also: [https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/the-straight-dope/Content?oid=884072](https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/the-straight-dope/Content?oid=884072) > [@](#): > > The gist of my original column was that no compelling argument could be made either way regarding circumcision. Having read the above, does anybody still need proof? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/83 "2018-11-12T06:38:16Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > If only I could find an article about this on the internet… > > _Checks message board_. Ah yes, one Cecil Adams penned a column on circumcision in 1994. [The last word on circumcision - The Straight Dope](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2358/last-word-on-circumcision/) > > Also: [https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/the-straight-dope/Content?oid=884072](https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/the-straight-dope/Content?oid=884072) Cutting infant penises is bizarre. I cannot believe this is a contentious issue at all on a website such as this. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/84 "2018-11-12T08:56:06Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I had ear-piercing in mind as I was posting, and do not see what would make that any more ethical than circumcision or foot-binding or mild electric shocks. Foot-binding was not minor (well, there were minor forms, where the foot was simply tightly wrapped to make them look a bit smaller for special events, then unwrapped, that’s not what anyone objects to and was usually done by older girls or women to themselves), it was on a whole other level of child torture to the rest of that list; I don’t personally support ear piercing babies, but a lot of girls and women choose to have to it done at a later date, whereas no-one chooses to have their toes and bones of the feet broken and wrapped so tightly their foot’s forced into a 3 inch point they can barely hobble on leaving their toes to often rot off. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/85 "2018-11-12T10:06:32Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Cutting infant penises is bizarre. I cannot believe this is a contentious issue at all on a website such as this. It’s contentious because a lot of men are happy with their cut penises. I’m also glad that my penis looks exactly how an American girl expects it to look when we become intimate. Which is really why I chose to get it for my son. (And locker rooms too) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/86 "2018-11-12T10:38:41Z")
Boy, now there’s a self-perpetuating problem if I ever saw one… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/87 "2018-11-12T10:43:45Z")
And sad, since some of us “American girls” really don’t care either way. The notion that women will recoil in horror from an uncut penis is way overdone. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/88 "2018-11-12T11:21:21Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Boy, now there’s a self-perpetuating problem if I ever saw one… Except, there isn’t actually a problem for me or 99% of cut men I would guess… ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/89 "2018-11-12T11:28:49Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > I’m also glad that my penis looks exactly how an American girl expects it to look when we become intimate. Which is really why I chose to get it for my son. (And locker rooms too) so…you chose to perform a medically unnecessary procedure on a baby, without its consent, for _cosmetic_ reasons? What I don’t understand about that is that circumcised and uncircumcised penises look pretty much the same at the point where anything intimate is about to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/90 "2018-11-12T12:05:44Z")
[Denmark Doctors](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/denmarks-29000-doctors-declare-circumcision-of-healthy_b_58753ec1e4b08052400ee6b3) Declare Circumcision Of Healthy Boys ‘Ethically Unacceptable’ > [@](#): > > Doctors and medical organizations in Denmark, the other Nordic countries and, with one notable exception, elsewhere in the Western world agree that circumcision of healthy boys is ethically problematic. It is considered an operation seriously and patently at odds with the Hippocratic oath (”first do no harm”) and one that is in conflict with a variety of international conventions, most notably the U.N. Declaration of the Rights of the Child. Here’s a lecture by Brian D. Earp, a Yale bioethicist, arguing that circumcision is unethical. [Circumcision - a sexual harm?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB-2aQoTQeA) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/91 "2018-11-12T12:50:46Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > Yeah, I’m the crazy one. > > You don’t see me butchering infant children for no reason. So…you have a reason? > [@nightshadea](#): > > im still waiting for the fascinating religious angle to be explained …… I’m still waiting for the connection to Obamacare. I’m pretty sure mandatory circumcision and/or mandatory participation in the circumcision of others are not enshrined in the law anywhere. As for me - it was common when I was born and I’m not traumatized by the experience, but wouldn’t have it done for my son (if I had one, which I don’t) these days as the understanding of the medical benefits and demerits are better understood. We live and learn. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/92 "2018-11-12T14:29:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This kinda caused me to think a bit, once I realised that I caught myself reflexively thinking of my own condition as normal, and then thought “How the Hell would I know, haven’t showered with other guys since high school, and didn’t pay much attention then”. > > Then recalled a good little movie I watched called _Europa_. About a Jewish boy who survived the war in Nazi Germany by pretending to be an Aryan. At one point, a teacher in his school is pointing out the facial features that clarify his Aryan genotype. A comely young maiden of his acquaintance decides to respond the Fuhrer’s call for more Aryan soldiers with patriotic pregnancy, and sets her cap…so to speak… for our hero. Which, of course, he doesn’t dare, because it would reveal his secret. A prickly dilemma, to be sure… > > What? OK, he’s been trimmed, why would that make him Jewish, lots of guys, most guys…No? In Germany of the 30’s and 40’s, and in most of Europe…I was told with indelicate condescension…this was not the case, not by a long shot. > > So, what’s the skinny on that? Anybody know? Americans get circumcised. Outside of US Americans and Canadians, it’s very rare for non-Jews and non-Muslims to get circumcised (with a couple of weird exceptions like Ethiopia and Oceania. Ethiopia probably due to Islamic influence and Oceania because ??? ) Because we are Americans, this confuses us and we assume that everyone gets circumcised. Circumcision was actually banned by Catholics for centuries and even today some Christian cutures consider it paganism. So to answer your question, non-Jewish, non-Muslim Germans do not get circumcised, nor would they have in the 30s. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/93 "2018-11-12T15:21:40Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Ok. The ‘core of the restoration argument´. What the hell are you talking about? > **[Foreskin restoration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin_restoration)** > > Foreskin restoration is the process of expanding the skin on the penis to reconstruct an organ similar to the foreskin, which has been removed by circumcision or injury. Foreskin restoration is primarily accomplished by stretching the residual skin of the penis, but surgical methods also exist. Restoration creates a facsimile of the foreskin, but specialized tissues removed during circumcision cannot be reclaimed. Actual regeneration of the foreskin is experimental at this time. Some forms of r... Regardless, if I’m understanding you correctly you are uncircumcised and have no experience with having a circumcised penis. ---
**Author:** ![Trafalgar\_Laura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trafalgar_laura/32/2907_2.png) [@Trafalgar\_Laura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trafalgar_Laura)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/94 "2018-11-12T16:02:55Z")
If someone had cut off a small part of my genitals when I was a baby for no good (health-based) reason, I would be kinda mad. Even if it was some small area, that didn’t keep me from enjoying sex. Both clitoral removal and the removal of the hood seem like poor comparisons, since the effect in both cases would probably ruin sex and seriously impair arousal. Instead, maybe the removal of part of a labia? A girl would heal, could probably grow up and enjoy sex nonetheless, but it’d seem arbitrary and cruel to do it, even if one-labia was “in fashion” for women. I hope that baseless circumcision will eventually be banned. I’m not certain how we can adjust this with religious groups, but I wouldn’t accept them snipping parts of labias off of girls, so I don’t think I’m okay with taking the foreskin. Guys can get it removed themselves, if they so choose, as adults. Perhaps even as a religious statement, taking away the non-consentuality of circumcision by making it an adult decision as part of a religious or cultural identity. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/95 "2018-11-12T18:15:00Z")
Trafalgar Laura: > [@](#): > > I hope that baseless circumcision will eventually be banned. I’m not certain how we can adjust this with religious groups, but I wouldn’t accept them snipping parts of labias off of girls, so I don’t think I’m okay with taking the foreskin. Guys can get it removed themselves, if they so choose, as adults. Perhaps even as a religious statement, taking away the non-consentuality of circumcision by making it an adult decision as part of a religious or cultural identity. Sorry, but you can’t do that without a major impact on the practice of Judaism. The commandment is to perform the rite on a week-old baby boy. This is such an important part of the commandment that it even overrides the prohibitions of Sabbath. You take away the ability of Jews to do that, you’re basically killing freedom of religion in America (or whichever country adopts such a law, I can’t assume any given participant here is American). ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/96 "2018-11-12T18:50:14Z")
> [@Trafalgar\_Laura](#): > > I hope that baseless circumcision will eventually be banned. I’m not certain how we can adjust this with religious groups, but I wouldn’t accept them snipping parts of labias off of girls, so I don’t think I’m okay with taking the foreskin. Guys can get it removed themselves, if they so choose, as adults. Perhaps even as a religious statement, taking away the non-consentuality of circumcision by making it an adult decision as part of a religious or cultural identity. In the US, a circumcision ban will never happen (well, never is a long time, but not in any type of foreseeable future.) Religious protection runs extremely deep here, both legally and culturally. I can’t imagine any Supreme Court in my lifetime upholding a circumcision ban, although I could certainly see it not being funded via any sort of insurance and cerrtainly not via public funds. In Europe though, I could see it happening. Their religious protection laws are much looser and I could see anti-Muslim crusaders trying to push it through a la hijab bans. Usually it’s Jews and Muslims fighting against such things with the help of Christian groups that worry about their own practices being infringed on. European Christianity though doesn’t have nearly the sway that US Christianity does and while Muslim numbers are increasing, the populace as a whole is much less likely to want to protect their freedoms. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/97 "2018-11-12T18:58:55Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Basically American circumcision is due to shoddy science. You could replace the word “circumcision” in that sentence with many other things and still have it be true. USA! USA! ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/98 "2018-11-12T21:03:59Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Trafalgar Laura: > > Sorry, but you can’t do that without a major impact on the practice of Judaism. The commandment is to perform the rite on a week-old baby boy. This is such an important part of the commandment that it even overrides the prohibitions of Sabbath. You take away the ability of Jews to do that, you’re basically killing freedom of religion in America (or whichever country adopts such a law, I can’t assume any given participant here is American). Ever heard the saying “my freedom to swing my fist ends where your nose begins?” I think the same general idea should apply with religion. Your freedom to practice your religion should end if it implies amputating healthy erogenous tissue from a baby. The Quran commands Muslims to chop off the hands of thieves. But enlightened societies ban that particular religious practice. Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in blood transfusions, but the State intervenes if a child needs a blood transfusion and their parents don’t consent. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/99 "2018-11-12T21:42:56Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Sorry, but you can’t do that without a major impact on the practice of Judaism. The commandment is to perform the rite on a week-old baby boy. This is such an important part of the commandment that it even overrides the prohibitions of Sabbath. You take away the ability of Jews to do that, you’re basically killing freedom of religion in America (or whichever country adopts such a law, I can’t assume any given participant here is American). That’s a terrible argument. Nothing stops an adult from getting it done at a time of their choosing, otherwise how can people ever convert to judaism? does having it done later mean they are not a proper jew? are babies who can’t be circumcised due to medical reasons not proper jews? It is a form of barbaric bronze-age cosmetic branding, done to a helpless individual who is unable to protest. Freedom of religion to me means that an\* individual \*gets to believe and practice in whatever way they see fit as long as it does not harm another person. I don’t see how enforced medical procedures are any reasonable exception. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/100 "2018-11-12T23:38:46Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Sorry, but you can’t do that without a major impact on the practice of Judaism. The commandment is to perform the rite on a week-old baby boy. This is such an important part of the commandment that it even overrides the prohibitions of Sabbath. You take away the ability of Jews to do that, you’re basically killing freedom of religion in America (or whichever country adopts such a law, I can’t assume any given participant here is American). Depends. Global Judaism itself is mulling various compromises on the practice of _brit milah_, as discussed in the _Forward_ article I linked to in my previous post. As the article notes, the original biblical-era commandment appears not to have included the practice of _periah_ or foreskin removal, being limited to _milah_ or trimming the foreskin tip. If _metzizah_ or sucking the blood from the newly cut penis is being discontinued for modern hygiene reasons, _periah_ could conceivably also end up being removed from the standard definition of “circumcision”. Furthermore, I don’t see how outlawing male infant circumcision due to the subject’s inability to give consent is inherently “killing freedom of religion” any more than outlawing so-called “female circumcision” or FGM on minor girls is. Many groups who practice FGM believe that their religion mandates the cutting of young girls’ genitals, yet it is illegal in the US to carry out such practices on girls under 18. So if freedom of religion depends on the right to subject minor children to genital cutting, it looks like freedom of religion in the US is already gone anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=6)