# Infant genetal mutilation is a blood sacrifice to the demon Yahwe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321 "2018-11-10T20:59:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/101 "2018-11-12T23:40:02Z")
> [@Trafalgar\_Laura](#): > > I hope that baseless circumcision will eventually be banned. I’m not certain how we can adjust this with religious groups, but I wouldn’t accept them snipping parts of labias off of girls, so I don’t think I’m okay with taking the foreskin. Guys can get it removed themselves, if they so choose, as adults. Perhaps even as a religious statement, taking away the non-consentuality of circumcision by making it an adult decision as part of a religious or cultural identity. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Sorry, but you can’t do that without a major impact on the practice of Judaism. The commandment is to perform the rite on a week-old baby boy. This is such an important part of the commandment that it even overrides the prohibitions of Sabbath. I’d like to point out that during the reign of Roman Emperor Hadrian a law was passed that banned circumcision under penalty of death. The Jews of the time still continued the practice. This is NOT a practice that will end simply by saying “it’s no longer legal”. Under Judaism, circumcising infant boys is not something negotiable. It’s not “adjustable”. Sure, pass any law you want but how do you intend to enforce it, and how steep the penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/102 "2018-11-12T23:49:32Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That’s a terrible argument. Nothing stops an adult from getting it done at a time of their choosing, otherwise how can people ever convert to judaism? does having it done later mean they are not a proper jew? are babies who can’t be circumcised due to medical reasons not proper jews? A baby boy that isn’t circumcised on time is ritually cut off from the community. They can not participate in Sabbath services. They can not participate in the High Holidays. They’re still Jewish, but unable to participate in the Jewish community. Adult converts, of course, aren’t doing the above until they _are_ converted, at which point they have to be circumcised if they’re men. The one and only exception to circumcision is if it threatens the _life_ of the boy - there’s an ancient exception that seems to be connected to hemophilia, for example (if a mother has had two prior boys die from circumcision subsequent sons are excused from the requirement). “Because the _goyim_ don’t like the practice” is not seen as sufficient reason to skip it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/103 "2018-11-13T00:07:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > A baby boy that isn’t circumcised on time is ritually cut off from the community. […] They’re still Jewish, but unable to participate in the Jewish community. **Which** Jewish community? As I pointed out above, one of the issues that’s being largely ignored here is the small but growing resistance to circumcision within Judaism itself. [Even in Israel.](https://www.haaretz.com/even-in-israel-more-and-more-parents-choose-not-to-circumcise-1.5178506) > [@](#): > > […] according to most estimates, between 1 to 2 percent of Jewish males born in Israel in the past decade were not circumcised. Furthermore, there is no obligation for parents to formally report whether their sons have been circumcised or not, either at the rabbinate or the government authorities. > > An informal online survey conducted in 2006 by the Israeli parenting portal Mamy found that of 1,418 parents of boys, 4.8 percent did not have them circumcised. The reasons given: 1.6 percent were not Jews; 2 percent objected to disfiguring the body; and 1.2 percent refrained because the act is painful. > The survey also found that nearly a third of the parents would prefer to forgo circumcision but nevertheless have it done for social reasons (16.6 percent‏), health reasons (10.4 percent‏) and because it is important for the grandparents (2.1 percent‏). ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/104 "2018-11-13T01:05:46Z")
Blalron: > [@](#): > > Ever heard the saying “my freedom to swing my fist ends where your nose begins?” I think the same general idea should apply with religion. Your freedom to practice your religion should end if it implies amputating healthy erogenous tissue from a baby. Parents have the authority to decide what is in the best interests of their minor children, it is not the same situation as forcing something on a complete stranger. Novelty Bobble: > [@](#): > > That’s a terrible argument. Nothing stops an adult from getting it done at a time of their choosing, otherwise how can people ever convert to judaism? does having it done later mean they are not a proper jew? are babies who can’t be circumcised due to medical reasons not proper jews? Circumcision is no less valid if done later, and lack of circumcision does not make a Jew not Jewish. However, that situation (not for a convert, who is not yet Jewish at the time, that’s a totally different situation) is not considered ideal. The Torah commandment is for baby boys to be circumcised on their eighth day of life if physically feasible, and any fulfillment of the commandment at a later date is considered less than ideal. Kimstu: > [@](#): > > Depends. Global Judaism itself is mulling various compromises on the practice of brit milah, as discussed in the Forward article I linked to in my previous post. “Global Judaism”? I guarantee you that no Orthodox groups are mulling any such thing, and certainly not changing the 8th day mandate (pun not intended) which is about as explicit as a law in the Torah gets. In reading the linked article, I don’t see any indication that any organized Jewish group is mulling such a thing either. Furthermore… > [@](#): > > As the article notes, the original biblical-era commandment appears not to have included the practice of periah or foreskin removal, being limited to milah or trimming the foreskin tip. If metzizah or sucking the blood from the newly cut penis is being discontinued for modern hygiene reasons, periah could conceivably also end up being removed from the standard definition of “circumcision”. …the article says no such thing. It says there is speculation - which it freely admits is no more than speculation - that periah was a Greek-era addition. It says there is no evidence that Biblical-era circumcision included periah, but conversely. there is also evidence for any Jewish circumcision ceremony that does not include all elements of a modern Jewish circumcision (i.e., the physical act itself, not such aspects as the blessings and the prayers recited during the ceremony), and tradition as far back as recorded includes it. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, I don’t see how outlawing male infant circumcision due to the subject’s inability to give consent is inherently “killing freedom of religion” any more than outlawing so-called “female circumcision” or FGM on minor girls is. Many groups who practice FGM believe that their religion mandates the cutting of young girls’ genitals, yet it is illegal in the US to carry out such practices on girls under 18. I agree with this wholeheartedly, and as distasteful as many find the practice, I would defend the right of any Muslim who believes that the Quran demands FGM for the girl’s spiritual benefit to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/105 "2018-11-13T01:27:53Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > “Global Judaism”? I guarantee you that no Orthodox groups are mulling any such thing I didn’t say they were. But many other Jews all over the world are. > [@cmkeller](#): > > In reading the linked article, I don’t see any indication that any organized Jewish group is mulling such a thing either. If by “organized Jewish groups” you mean “official or quasi-official leaderships of denominations of Judaism” rather than “Jewish organizations against circumcision”, then AFAIK you’re right. > [@cmkeller](#): > > It says there is no evidence that Biblical-era circumcision included periah, but conversely. there is also evidence for any Jewish circumcision ceremony that does not include all elements of a modern Jewish circumcision (i.e., the physical act itself, not such aspects as the blessings and the prayers recited during the ceremony), and tradition as far back as recorded includes it. I don’t understand this sentence(s). Did you mean “there is also no evidence”? > [@cmkeller](#): > > I agree with this wholeheartedly, and as distasteful as many find the practice, I would defend the right of any Muslim who believes that the Quran demands FGM for the girl’s spiritual benefit to do so. Where do you draw the line on this issue? Does religious freedom also require exemptions from, say, [laws against child abuse/neglect and manslaughter](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/08/12/most-states-allow-religious-exemptions-from-child-abuse-and-neglect-laws/)? Most drastically, if a parent believes that they are obligated for religious reasons to kill their child, should that be allowed in the name of religious freedom? I’m not arguing that infant male circumcision is in any way equivalent to murder, or even to most forms of female genital cutting. But I do think that if a religious-freedom argument is applied to defend parental rights to practice both infant male circumcision and FGM, it becomes difficult to know exactly what religious practices on children can be excluded under that argument. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/106 "2018-11-13T01:45:19Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Circumcision is definitely medically necessary for those patients (including infants and children) whose severe phimoses do not respond to more conservative treatment… As I think I mentioned elsewhere, I once had a kitten circumcised, and it saved his life. He was unable to pee until the surgery was performed. (I fostered many kittens, and that’s the only one we had circumcised.) > [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I remember hearing a discussion about, ahem, this on NPR, and a guy called in to say that he had been circumcised as a sexually active adult, and said that the experience for him went from color to B&W, due to losing so many active nerve endings. If we are trading second hand anecdotes, I read a letter written to Dan Savage by a guy who said the tighter skin post-circumcision enhanced his pleasure. There are actually a lot of men who have had it done, I wonder if anyone has surveyed them. Some had it done for medical reasons, and most of the others to convert to Judaism or Islam, so maybe they would be motivated to say it’s good. But it’s research that could be done. > [@Broomstick](#): > > …The one and only exception to circumcision is if it threatens the _life_ of the boy - there’s an ancient exception that seems to be connected to hemophilia, for example (if a mother has had two prior boys die from circumcision subsequent sons are excused from the requirement)… The rabbis today interpret that as being about hemophilia. I have a friend who is an Orthodox Jew, and his eldest son has hemophilia. It was diagnosed shortly after his circumcision. :eek: When his wife became pregnant with a second child, their rabbi told them to have the newborn tested for hemophilia, and if the boy tested positive, he should not be circumcised. I learned the second son did not have hemophilia when I received an invitation to the bris. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/107 "2018-11-13T01:53:21Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > …I could also masterbate with the skin pulled back and use hand lotion with the other hand, I feel confident saying no uncircumcised male does this. Let this post be a sounding for any that actually can and yet do this… I’m pretty sure no circumcised male tugs on his junk with one hand while rubbing lotion around with the other, either. I have no idea where this idea came from that circumcised men need to use lotion to masturbate. My husband has never had to use lotion. His parts work just fine. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/108 "2018-11-13T04:14:25Z")
Kimstu: > [@](#): > > I don’t understand this sentence(s). Did you mean “there is also no evidence”? Thank you, yes. The article says there is no evidence that Jewish practice before certain details were recorded in the Mishnah/Talmud had those same details in Biblical times. I meant to say that there is similarly no evidence that they had different details in Biblical times. All recorded information about Jewish circumcision ritual indicates inclusion those details. > [@](#): > > Where do you draw the line on this issue? Does religious freedom also require exemptions from, say, laws against child abuse/neglect and manslaughter? Most drastically, if a parent believes that they are obligated for religious reasons to kill their child, should that be allowed in the name of religious freedom? That’s a tough question, and I won’t pretend I haven’t struggled with it. But I think that the answer would have to be what we allow parents to do for their child for secular reasons. If we allow parents to authorize surgery for their child because it improves their physical health, then they should be allowed to authorize surgery for their child if they believe it will improve their spiritual health. The state (at least in the US, given the First Amendment) has no right to step in and say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/109 "2018-11-13T04:53:45Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > As I think I mentioned elsewhere, I once had a kitten circumcised, and it saved his life. He was unable to pee until the surgery was performed. > > (I fostered many kittens, and that’s the only one we had circumcised.) > > If we are trading second hand anecdotes, I read a letter written to Dan Savage by a guy who said the tighter skin post-circumcision enhanced his pleasure. > > There are actually a lot of men who have had it done, I wonder if anyone has surveyed them. Some had it done for medical reasons, and most of the others to convert to Judaism or Islam, so maybe they would be motivated to say it’s good. But it’s research that could be done. > The rabbis today interpret that as being about hemophilia. I have a friend who is an Orthodox Jew, and his eldest son has hemophilia. It was diagnosed shortly after his circumcision. :eek: When his wife became pregnant with a second child, their rabbi told them to have the newborn tested for hemophilia, and if the boy tested positive, he should not be circumcised. I learned the second son did not have hemophilia when I received an invitation to the bris. I heard about an elderly man who came to the ER with some medical condition that led to him needing to be catheterized, and he was circumcised by the ER doctor before they inserted it. :eek: His DIL was the one who told me about it! That was a bit of TMI, but neither of us had ever heard of this having to be done for this reason. He did recover, BTW. As for the man who wrote to Dan Savage, everyone’s experience is going to be different whether they’re “cut” or not. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/110 "2018-11-13T05:48:34Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > The article says there is no evidence that Jewish practice before certain details were recorded in the Mishnah/Talmud had those same details in Biblical times. I meant to say that there is similarly no evidence that they had different details in Biblical times. Well, numerous other sources such as [this one at Jewish Virtual Library](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/circumcision-brit-milah) claim that there **is** evidence for believing that _periah_ or removal of the entire foreskin was introduced into ritual circumcision in Hellenistic times: > [@](#): > > Many Jews who wanted to participate nude in the Greek games in the gymnasia underwent painful operations to obliterate the signs of circumcision (epispasm). […] > > After the \*Bar Kokhba revolt the rabbis apparently instituted peri’ah (laying bare of the glans), probably in reaction to attempts to “obliterate the Seal of the Covenant” by epispasm. According to Tractate Shabbat 19:2, circumcision and peri’ah became part of a unified process in which the mohel disposed of all or most of the foreskin and then split the thin layer of mucosal membrane that is under the foreskin and rolled it downward to uncover the head of the penis. The importance of peri’ah is emphasized in the early rabbinic period and supportive midrashic readings were constructed in order to base it in Torah (e.g. ḥatan damim (Ex. 4:25) is said to imply two acts: the blood of milah, the actual circumcision, and the blood of the peri’ah incision (TJ, Shab. 19:2 17(a)). > [@cmkeller](#): > > But I think that the answer would have to be what we allow parents to do for their child for secular reasons. If we allow parents to authorize surgery for their child because it improves their physical health, then they should be allowed to authorize surgery for their child if they believe it will improve their spiritual health. But AFAIK, there is absolutely **no** secular medical code or secular law or physical health reason that validates the surgical removal of parts of the normally functioning genitalia of a minor girl. No accredited doctor in the US would be allowed to perform such a procedure and no law permits a girl’s parents to try to procure such an operation. If there is no identifiable pathological condition justifying the surgery, there is no legal or constitutional right to choose to have it performed on a minor child. So ISTM that by your analogy, there would be absolutely no First Amendment justification for permitting a minor girl’s parents to authorize the surgical removal of parts of her normally functioning genitalia for what they believe to be a “spiritual health reason”. Claiming that **all** girls’ girl-parts, even physically normal and healthy ones, need to be mutilated because a deity commands it is not equivalent to identifying a specific medical pathology that demonstrably requires such surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/111 "2018-11-13T09:28:28Z")
Penises are ugly things, they can use all the help they can get. What’s a little nip n tuck ever hurt anybody? :o ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/112 "2018-11-13T10:56:24Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Penises are ugly things, they can use all the help they can get. What’s a little nip n tuck ever hurt anybody? :o That’s not an assertion that holds any weight other than as your own \*personal \*view. Even if your individual, purely subjective, _opinion_ were true for _you_, to put it forward as a reason for carrying out circumcision on a helpless infant is…to be blunt…barbaric. I can think of no other word for it. Respond to this. I think that the outer ear is ugly. I will therefore surgically trim the outer ears of my newborn baby to make them look like Elf-ears What do you think of that choice? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/113 "2018-11-13T11:03:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **Which** Jewish community? As I pointed out above, one of the issues that’s being largely ignored here is the small but growing resistance to circumcision within Judaism itself. [Even in Israel.](https://www.haaretz.com/even-in-israel-more-and-more-parents-choose-not-to-circumcise-1.5178506) You’re talking about a tiny percentage of Jewish people in that group. It’s like saying that because three people in Dubuque, Iowa got their noses pierced there is now a massive craze in Dubuque for nose-piercing when in reality almost everyone in Dubuque thinks the practice weird, gross, and deviant. There has always been a small number of Jews opposed to or failing to practice circumcision. That doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority of them (into the very high nineties percentage-wise) are really, really attached to the practice. Just a note, because this always comes up when I start posting like this: I myself am opposed to infant circumcision without medical need. I’m merely trying to correct the notion that some seem to have that the Jewish people at large would cooperate with either abolishing circumcision or moving it to later in life for the boys/men in the community. Several thousand years of history indicate that that would likely be among the _last_ of their traditions they’d give up. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/114 "2018-11-13T11:12:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That’s not an assertion that holds any weight other than as your own \*personal \*view. > > Even if your individual, purely subjective, _opinion_ were true for _you_, to put it forward as a reason for carrying out circumcision on a helpless infant is…to be blunt…barbaric. I can think of no other word for it. > > Respond to this. I think that the outer ear is ugly. I will therefore surgically trim the outer ears of my newborn baby to make them look like Elf-ears > > What do you think of that choice? Mine was just an attempt to be light-hearted. It was just a joke. I don’t support routine circumcision. That being said, your comparison of it to ear severing is not apt. The physical health risks that ear-severing would involve are much more significant than those risks involved with circumcision, which is just snipping a small bit of skin. While it doesn’t improve health outlooks really at all, it also doesn’t worsen those outlooks either. That is untrue with your ear-cutting example. ETA: what exactly do you mean by “outer ear”? To me, ‘outer ear’ means the part of the ear outside of the head. I thought that was what you meant as well until i re-read the sentence about elf-ears. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/115 "2018-11-13T11:18:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I didn’t say they were. But many other Jews all over the world are. 1-2% of Jews world-wide \*might \*be many people in absolute numbers (highest estimates of world Jewish population would put that at around 150,000-300,000 people) but it is NOT “many Jews” percentage-wise. 98% of Jews still are advocates and practitioners of infant male circumcision. > [@](#): > > Where do you draw the line on this issue? Does religious freedom also require exemptions from, say, [laws against child abuse/neglect and manslaughter](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/08/12/most-states-allow-religious-exemptions-from-child-abuse-and-neglect-laws/)? Most drastically, if a parent believes that they are obligated for religious reasons to kill their child, should that be allowed in the name of religious freedom? > > I’m not arguing that infant male circumcision is in any way equivalent to murder, or even to most forms of female genital cutting. But I do think that if a religious-freedom argument is applied to defend parental rights to practice both infant male circumcision and FGM, it becomes difficult to know exactly what religious practices on children can be excluded under that argument. I think it’s a matter of balancing rights vs. social harms. We allow parents to pierce the ears of infants, even though that is completely unnecessary for any medical reason (unlike the rare occasion there is a need for circumcision) because it does little to no harm and banning it would be socially disruptive for certain sub-cultures in our society. Although I would personally like to ban this (because it is unnecessary and done for the parents, not the child) I’m not going to lobby for it because I don’t think the amount of harm done warrants the effort of opposing those folks in favor of it. I’d like to ban unnecessary circumcision of minors, but given how disruptive that would be to Muslims and even more so to Jews and how likely those groups are to oppose such a change I’m not sure the cure wouldn’t be as bad as, or worse, than the disease. Which I why I’d be more inclined to argue for harm reduction - making sure the practice is done hygienically by trained people, openly so any complications can be dealt with rapidly, and so forth - while trying to persuade, over time, less severe forms of the practice and perhaps encouraging people to forgo or postpone it. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/116 "2018-11-13T12:48:17Z")
It’s common for defenders of infant circumcision to say that the child doesn’t remember the experience, therefore the pain inflicted is not a problem. Turns out that’s not entirely true. They may not have a narrative memory of it, but it seems the trauma is encoded in their brain somewhere. Circumcised babies show a greater pain response to vaccinations 4 and 6 months later. [Effect of neonatal circumcision on pain response during subsequent routine vaccination.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731) > [@](#): > > INTERPRETATION: > Circumcised infants showed a stronger pain response to subsequent routine vaccination than uncircumcised infants. Among the circumcised group, preoperative treatment with Emla attenuated the pain response to vaccination. We recommend treatment to prevent neonatal circumcision pain. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/117 "2018-11-13T13:02:27Z")
Defenders of routine infant circumcision trivialize the foreskin as being merely a useless flap of skin. But actually, the foreskin is not just ordinary skin. It contains unique tissue found nowhere else on the body. [What circumcision takes away](http://www.foregen.org/human_foreskin) > [@](#): > > The foreskin is at the heart of male sexuality. Circumcision almost always results in a diminution of sexual sensitivity; largely because removing the foreskin cuts away the most nerve-rich part of the penis (up to 80% of the penis’s nerve endings reside in the foreskin) [1]. The following anatomy is amputated with circumcision: > > The Taylor “ridged band” (sometimes called the “frenar band”), the primary erogenous zone of the male body. This unique, highly specialized and exquisitely sensitive structure is equipped with soft ridges designed by nature to stimulate the female’s inner labia and G-spot during intercourse > > The frenulum, the highly erogenous V-shaped tethering structure on the underside of the head of the penis > 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings of several types, which can feel slight variations in pressure and stretching, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations in texture > > Thousands of coiled fine-touch receptors called Meissner’s corpuscles, which are also found in the fingertips ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/118 "2018-11-13T13:06:21Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Mine was just an attempt to be light-hearted. It was just a joke. I don’t support routine circumcision. That being said, your comparison of it to ear severing is not apt. > > The physical health risks that ear-severing would involve are much more significant than those risks involved with circumcision, which is just snipping a small bit of skin. I didn’t say ear-severing, I said trimming. I’m happy for you to allow me to remove as much soft tissue from the ears during my trimming as you’d allow for a circumcision. OK with that now? Personally I’d suggest that any medical intervention regarding the genitals is considered of greater significance than that of the soft tissue of the ears. If I gave you a choice of receiving a razor cut and stitches on your outer ear or genitals which would you choose? > [@](#): > > While it doesn’t improve health outlooks really at all, it also doesn’t worsen those outlooks either. That is untrue with your ear-cutting example. How would trimming the ears of new-born children worsen the outlooks for them? > [@](#): > > ETA: what exactly do you mean by “outer ear”? To me, ‘outer ear’ means the part of the ear outside of the head. I thought that was what you meant as well until i re-read the sentence about elf-ears. Yes, that’s what I mean. There is cartilage in the outer ears but I’m not going to touch that. I’m just going to trim the soft tissue and lobes until it looks cosmetically pleasing to me. Happy with that? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/119 "2018-11-13T16:31:01Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I also think that the OP has some meds that he needs to be taking. I dunno, I read the OP as a long-belated satire of the Hobby Lobby decision. ---
**Author:** ![Kadmos1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@Kadmos1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kadmos1)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/120 "2018-11-13T18:09:56Z")
This thread really cuts into one’s character. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=7)