# Infant genetal mutilation is a blood sacrifice to the demon Yahwe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321 "2018-11-10T20:59:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/141 "2018-11-13T20:36:48Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Quite trying to claim I am making a 1:1 equivalence, but I will state that your response demonstrates my point. > > It may cause cognitive dissonance, and yes in general I agree that clitoralectomies are far worse for a humans full life experience but there is no moral high ground here to do the same in the US for fashion. > > The rate of horrid outcomes may be less but there is still an impact and it is very much a demonstration of hypocrisy when “othering” other groups. > > Being apathetic about male genital mutilation shows just how much we dehumanize the populations were female genital mutilation happens. > > It is simply a good example of a white savior complex as my post pointed out. We should be ashamed of our actions and we should take this shame to better treat others as humans and not as savages as it would generally help with helping reduce the amount of female genital mutilations if we did so. > > This is a good example of an argument from benevolent prejudice. > > The arguments you are making to explain away our own barbaric practices are exactly the same ones floating around those other cultures, if we understand one we understand the other better and can better help target the issue. Pretending it isn’t an unnecessary barbaric practice is the problem in both cases irrespective of the degree of negative results for the individuals. You are arguing against a strawman of my position. I do not hold any of the positions you are claiming i do. _Again_, I am of the opinion that medically unnecessary circumcision (or the vast, vast majority of circumcisions performed in the U.S.) are not right and should end as a practice in my country. Traditions do not trump medical knowledge and necessity. I’m not “explaining away” anything, nor am I pretending that both are not uneccesary, barbaric practice (just one). “Barbaric” is subjective and i would use that term to describe FGM but I wouldn’t use it to describe MC. But again, there is no real objective truth as to what constitutes “barbaric”, so i would just not even use the word, simply to avoid any tangled messes of opinion. I _only_ and singularly take issue with the (false) equivalence between the two practices shown repeatedly throughout this thread (if not by you then many others) in the attempt to paint one practice with the tainted colors of the other practice. Circumcision is wrong and enough of a collective societal concern, it does not need to have the waters muddied by intertwining the issue with a larger, more wicked, insidious practice that is more of a global atrocity than a national one. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/142 "2018-11-13T20:38:00Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Are there other cultures outside of American culture that have FGM placed in the same cultural position of normalcy and attractiveness that male circumcision has enjoyed for so many decades in the U.S.? Cultures where the women are proud of their mutilation, or at least indifferent and nonchalant about it? Well, if you read **rat avatar** ’s linked article, you saw that among the Rendille people of Kenya the practice of fairly drastic FGC is completely typical (though it’s practiced on late adolescent/postadolescent young women getting married, not preadolescent girls) and a source of pride to its subjects, and that its incidence hasn’t decreased between 1996 and 2015, despite international health workers trying to discourage it. [FGC in Indonesia](http://theconversation.com/female-genital-cutting-common-in-indonesia-offered-as-part-of-child-delivery-by-birth-clinics-54379) is performed on about half of female infants, AFAICT, and has had steady popular support (and increasing “medicalization” as a routine part of obstetric procedures) despite government efforts to ban it. But note that most forms of FGC practiced in Indonesia are much more minor/symbolic than, say, the clitoridectomy practices among the Rendille, generally involving temporary scraping or pricking that produces no permanent changes in the genitalia. Here’s a [WHO Bulletin](http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/4/07-042093/en/) on the prevalence of FGC in Egypt, though it has a lot of information about FGC in other African societies as well. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/143 "2018-11-13T20:38:55Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > **Mutilation** - “An injury that causes disfigurement or that deprives you of a limb or other important body part” > > My brother was “mutilated” at birth and, according to my SiL, his penis works just fine. > > It’s obvious from the misuse of this word, for dramatic effect no doubt, and the use of other phrases such as “the desert demon yahweh”, that this is a viciously anti-Semitic thread. > > I believe the program is to demonize and dehumanize the target group and, once that is accomplished, it is much easier to proceed with the inhumane treatment of that group. I think I kind of lean in this direction too, but I think there are anti-Muslim undertones to it as well. I can definitely see how someone can be against circumcision. It’s not necessary and arguably has a mild health risk. I just don’t get why someone would be rabidly and violently against it without there being something else going on. Whether it’s anti-Semitic, or anti-Muslim or just anti-religion in general I can’t say, but it’s a strange thing to get really upset about unless it’s a dog-whistle for something perhaps a bit more sinister. As an analogy, I find it gauche to see babies with pierced ears. I don’t find it necessary to call their parents tools of Satan and advocate destroying their cultural beliefs. Latinas pierce their kids ears-I don’t care for it, but I can also leave well-enough alone. It’s their culture and the kids aren’t being abused in a meaningful sense, so at most I might verbally say, “You can probably wait.” Going to the polls to outlaw it or to heap vitriol on their heads strikes me as a grave overreaction bordering on injustice. Back to circumcision, I can only speak as someone who was circumcised when I say I’m not living in a Hellscape of misery because of the decision. Honestly, I don’t even think about it. I think that’s a pretty typical outcome for people who were circumcised, so I’m not exactly sure why there’s a need to take to the barricades and begin spilling blood in the streets unless there’s a particular brand of blood that you want to be spilling that has little to do with the procedure and more to do with who is performing it. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/144 "2018-11-13T20:46:43Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > **Mutilation** - “An injury that causes disfigurement or that deprives you of a limb or other important body part” > > My brother was “mutilated” at birth and, according to my SiL, his penis works just fine. A penis can be “disfigured” and still work “just fine”. In the case of your brother, his “mutilation” didnt deprive him of any body part, limb or bodily function (well, with the exception of being deprived of the ability to create smegma, but I digress) but it did disfigure his body in the sense that it arbitrarily and needlessly took parts of that body away that reduced it from its intended, original natural state, without the consent of the victim. Or at least that’s what i imagine would be said. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/145 "2018-11-13T20:46:53Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I _only_ and singularly take issue with the (false) equivalence between the two practices shown repeatedly throughout this thread (if not by you then many others) in the attempt to paint one practice with the tainted colors of the other practice. Circumcision is wrong and enough of a collective societal concern, it does not need to have the waters muddied by intertwining the issue with a larger, more wicked, insidious practice that is more of a global atrocity than a national one. 😕 I think you need to define more specifically exactly what you mean by the “more wicked, insidious practice” that you refer to. Certainly, I personally would not consider the forms of, say, [Type IV FGC](http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/fgm/overview/en/) that have no permanent effect on the genitalia to be more “wicked” or “insidious” than male circumcision. But I don’t know what percent of [all FGC practices worldwide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country) fall into the “no permanent physical harm” category. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/146 "2018-11-13T20:48:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, if you read **rat avatar** ’s linked article, you saw that among the Rendille people of Kenya the practice of fairly drastic FGC is completely typical (though it’s practiced on late adolescent/postadolescent young women getting married, not preadolescent girls) and a source of pride to its subjects, and that its incidence hasn’t decreased between 1996 and 2015, despite international health workers trying to discourage it. > > [FGC in Indonesia](http://theconversation.com/female-genital-cutting-common-in-indonesia-offered-as-part-of-child-delivery-by-birth-clinics-54379) is performed on about half of female infants, AFAICT, and has had steady popular support (and increasing “medicalization” as a routine part of obstetric procedures) despite government efforts to ban it. But note that most forms of FGC practiced in Indonesia are much more minor/symbolic than, say, the clitoridectomy practices among the Rendille, generally involving temporary scraping or pricking that produces no permanent changes in the genitalia. > > Here’s a [WHO Bulletin](http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/4/07-042093/en/) on the prevalence of FGC in Egypt, though it has a lot of information about FGC in other African societies as well. Thanks! Ill read up on these (and other) links. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/147 "2018-11-13T20:49:13Z")
Ya it is easy to not care about male circumcision if you aren’t one of the men where who happened to have the procedure go horribly wrong. The point is it also wouldn’t have been a problem if it had never been done, but ask David Peter Reimer who was reassigned as a girl and raised female after a botched circumcision. Oh ya, you can’t ask him because he committed Suicide. While circumcision resulting in penis amputation is rare it is a real risk for a procedure that is primarily preformed due to fashion or the fetishes of a bronze age god. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/148 "2018-11-13T20:56:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 I think you need to define more specifically exactly what you mean by the “more wicked, insidious practice” that you refer to. Certainly, I personally would not consider the forms of, say, [Type IV FGC](http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/fgm/overview/en/) that have no permanent effect on the genitalia to be more “wicked” or “insidious” than male circumcision. But I don’t know what percent of [all FGC practices worldwide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country) fall into the “no permanent physical harm” category. One has absoltely no medical benefits while the other does (however unjustifably small those benefits may be in re to the procedure itself). Also, when i said one was more “wicked and insidious”, I was speaking of the (I dont remember the proper term) more involved, full-scale FGM and not the more harmless types. I apologize for doing exactly what I’m railing against by using the tainted colors of one practice color those of related, but distinct practices. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/149 "2018-11-13T21:00:55Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > You are arguing against a strawman of my position. I do not hold any of the positions you are claiming i do. _Again_, I am of the opinion that medically unnecessary circumcision (or the vast, vast majority of circumcisions performed in the U.S.) are not right and should end as a practice in my country. Traditions do not trump medical knowledge and necessity. I’m not “explaining away” anything, nor am I pretending that both are not uneccesary, barbaric practice (just one). “Barbaric” is subjective and i would use that term to describe FGM but I wouldn’t use it to describe MC. But again, there is no real objective truth as to what constitutes “barbaric”, so i would just not even use the word, simply to avoid any tangled messes of opinion. > > I _only_ and singularly take issue with the (false) equivalence between the two practices shown repeatedly throughout this thread (if not by you then many others) in the attempt to paint one practice with the tainted colors of the other practice. Circumcision is wrong and enough of a collective societal concern, it does not need to have the waters muddied by intertwining the issue with a larger, more wicked, insidious practice that is more of a global atrocity than a national one. Quit building the straw-man that there is an equivalence in the intensity of the effects then. The social reasons and hypocrisy is similar and this is a thread about male circumcision. The followers of yahweh are by far the most common adherence to these practices for both genders outside of the US where it seems merely to be fashion based. Note that the historical reasons of reducing a persons sexual pleasure may have been the historical reason for this and it DOES impact men. > **[Male circumcision decreases penile sensitivity as measured in a large cohort...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23374102/)** > > This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning. Furthermore, this study shows that a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual... > [@](#): > > For the glans penis, circumcised men reported decreased sexual pleasure and lower orgasm intensity. They also stated more effort was required to achieve orgasm, and a higher percentage of them experienced unusual sensations (burning, prickling, itching, or tingling and numbness of the glans penis). Hand waving away the negative effects as being unimportant is used to justify this mutilation on both sides. The fact that female genitalia mutilation is more awful doesn’t mean that male genitalia mutilation is not also bad. The justifications used are very similar for both practices and in that way they are very much related. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/150 "2018-11-13T21:20:37Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The followers of yahweh are by far the most common adherence to these practices for both genders outside of the US where it seems merely to be fashion based. Just want to point out that what you mean to say is Muslims and Jews, no need to obfuscate. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/151 "2018-11-13T21:21:44Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Just want to point out that what you mean to say is Muslims and Jews, no need to obfuscate. And some Christians. All three is what I meant and it was not an attempt to obfuscate, it is quite precise and descriptive. It is the followers of yahweh specifically who seem obsessed by foreskins. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/152 "2018-11-13T21:24:02Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And Christians, all three is what I meant and it was not an attempt to obfuscate, it is quite precise and descriptive. Christians don’t circumcise religiously (except in Ethiopia-don’t ask me, I don’t pretend to understand the nuances of Ethiopian Christianity.) Historically, they have been opposed to it as a pagan practice. Americans have picked up on it, but it has nothing to do with religion. Officially nearly every single denomination is agnostic on the practice although in Southern Africa many still do consider it paganism and verboten. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/153 "2018-11-13T21:23:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There has always been a small number of Jews opposed to or failing to practice circumcision. That doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority of them (into the very high nineties percentage-wise) are really, really attached to the practice. > > Just a note, because this always comes up when I start posting like this: I myself am opposed to infant circumcision without medical need. I’m merely trying to correct the notion that some seem to have that the Jewish people at large would cooperate with either abolishing circumcision or moving it to later in life for the boys/men in the community. Several thousand years of history indicate that that would likely be among the _last_ of their traditions they’d give up. Following up somewhat belatedly on this point: I’m not trying to claim that there’s more than a very small percentage of Jews today (about 2% at most, as previously noted) who actually abstain from infant male circumcision. But I’m not convinced that that means that the remaining 98% are necessarily “really, really attached to the practice” or that it “would likely be among the _last_ of their traditions they’d give up” based on “several thousand years of history”. For instance, take a closer look at the remark in the survey of Israeli parents that I quoted above: > [@](#): > > The survey also found that nearly a third of the parents would prefer to forgo circumcision but nevertheless have it done for social reasons (16.6 percent‏), health reasons (10.4 percent‏) and because it is important for the grandparents (2.1 percent‏). That’s nearly a third of parents who don’t sound “really, really attached to the practice” of circumcision, given that they personally “would prefer to forgo it”. Not all of those parents surveyed were Jewish, but given that the survey site was an Israeli parenting portal, it’s reasonable to infer that a large majority of them were. So just because almost all Jewish parents of boys continue the **practice** of circumcision doesn’t necessarily mean that all of them are **ideologically committed** to it. I’m also doubtful about claims that large supermajorities of Jewish communities throughout history have **always** supported circumcision. I have seen claims that, for instance, circumcision is practiced by [only about 40%](http://jewishcircumcision.org/info.htm) of the 20,000 or so Jews in Sweden (though I have no idea where that source got that figure). And certainly there was a significant decline in circumcision rates in ancient Hellenistic Judaism, as described in the [Book of Jubilees](http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/jubilees/15.htm) (15:33-34). So, while I wouldn’t describe Jewish support for circumcision as “a mile wide and an inch deep”, I think it would be fair to call it “nearly as wide as possible although perhaps narrowing slightly, and of varying depth depending on which Jewish community you’re talking about”. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/154 "2018-11-13T21:29:06Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Quit building the straw-man that there is an equivalence in the intensity of the effects then. > > The social reasons and hypocrisy is similar and this is a thread about male circumcision. The followers of yahweh are by far the most common adherence to these practices for both genders outside of the US where it seems merely to be fashion based. > > Note that the historical reasons of reducing a persons sexual pleasure may have been the historical reason for this and it DOES impact men. > > [Male circumcision decreases penile sensitivity as measured in a large cohort - PubMed](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102) > > Hand waving away the negative effects as being unimportant is used to justify this mutilation on both sides. The fact that female genitalia mutilation is more awful doesn’t mean that male genitalia mutilation is not also bad. The justifications used are very similar for both practices and in that way they are very much related. Ok, for the most part, im not disagreeing with your position. But FGM is not the problem on a national scale that it is on an international scale. The inverse is true for male circumcision, its not the problem on the international scale to the same extent it is on the national scale. So it seems to me that coupling the two issues together making fighting either of the two that much more imprecise, unfocused and ultimately ineffective. Why do we have to talk about FGM when discussing the problem of pointless male circumcision in the U.S? How does it advance the anti-circumcision movement? I am willing to be persuaded but as of yet I’ve seen nothing offered that changes my thinking. For some reason, my mind is likening this to the whole debacle of the notion of “if you’re white, you’re racist” or redefining “racism” to mean “white privilege”. How does coupling the concept of white privilege (a valid concept) with being racist/racism (obviously a valid concept) help dismantle either problem in our society? It makes me question the motives of those using those tactics to further their causes. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/155 "2018-11-13T21:29:11Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Christians don’t circumcise religiously (except in Ethiopia-don’t ask me, I don’t pretend to understand the nuances of Ethiopian Christianity.) Historically, they have been opposed to it as a pagan practice. Americans have picked up on it, but it has nothing to do with religion. Officially nearly every single denomination is agnostic on the practice although in Southern Africa many still do consider it paganism and verboten. That subject becomes complicated, even seen by some sects as being contrary to the Christian faith, with some groups who placed a bigger emphasis on _yahweh_ being more likely to practice it. This is why I avoided iterating between Muslims, Jews and Christians. As I said it was precise, as it is the Yahweh sections of the books that relate directly to this interest in foreskins. Yahweh was the god who is deeply obsessed with foreskins, not El etc… ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/156 "2018-11-13T21:33:08Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Ok, for the most part, im not disagreeing with your position. But FGM is not the problem on a national scale that it is on an international scale. The inverse is true for male circumcision, its not the problem on the international scale to the same extent it is on the national scale. So it seems to me that coupling the two issues together making fighting either of the two that much more imprecise, unfocused and ultimately ineffective. Why do we have to talk about FGM when discussing the problem of pointless male circumcision in the U.S? How does it advance the anti-circumcision movement? I am willing to be persuaded but as of yet I’ve seen nothing offered that changes my thinking. For some reason, my mind is likening this to the whole debacle of the notion of “if you’re white, you’re racist” or redefining “racism” to mean “white privilege”. How does coupling the concept of white privilege (a valid concept) with being racist/racism (obviously a valid concept) help dismantle either problem in our society? It makes me question the motives of those using those tactics to further their causes. Start a thread about it then, vs trying to block discussion about it in a thread about FGM. You are doing the same thing that men’s rights advocates do, co-opting a discussion. Male circumcision is 20% in the United Kingdom, to 45% in South Africa, to 80% in the United States, to over 90% in many Muslim-majority countries. I don’t know what you consider “world wide” but this issue does need to be addressed and it doesn’t need to be addressed at the expense of other concerns. But it may be useful to address the roots of both in locations where both genders suffer childhood mutilation as the justifications tend to have similar roots and may benefit from common concerns like basic human rights. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/157 "2018-11-13T21:36:11Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > That subject becomes complicated, even seen by some sects as being contrary to the Christian faith, with some groups who placed a bigger emphasis on _yahweh_ being more likely to practice it. This is why I avoided iterating between Muslims, Jews and Christians. > > As I said it was precise, as it is the Yahweh sections of the books that relate directly to this interest in foreskins. > > Yahweh was the god who is deeply obsessed with foreskins, not El etc… It’s not that complicated. Christians who practice circumcison religiously are a ridiculously small minority almost completely living in north east Africa. Copts encourage it because they are surrounded by a Muslim majority although even they wouldn’t say it’s required and Ethiopians (and by extension Eritreans) do it. That’s it. We’re talking maybe 2% of global Christians. There are probably more atheists that circumcise for health reasons percentagewise than Christians that do it for religious reasons. We actually had a controversy about it in the first century and it was resolved pretty firmly on the side of ‘not necessary.’ The vast, vast majority of circumcised people are Muslims, by far. As a percentage of their population, it’s Muslims and Jews. Bringing Christianity into it is muddying waters to make it seem like the attack is less racist than it really is (and it should be noted that the very few Christians that religiously circumcise are also brown people, so that’s of note.) ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/158 "2018-11-13T21:36:32Z")
_light hearted break from serious discussion_ Hey, we’re lucky that circumcision isnt a Christian tradition, given the chokehold the Roman Catholic Theology has over a huge segment of U.S. healthcare. If Catholics believed in circumcision, it would be mandated in 8 out of 10 hospitals in the country. We’d never get rid of it. Religion trumps medical science. Tis the American way. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/159 "2018-11-13T21:42:08Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Start a thread about it then, vs trying to block discussion about it in a thread about FGM. You are doing the same thing that men’s rights advocates do, co-opting a discussion. > > Male circumcision is 20% in the United Kingdom, to 45% in South Africa, to 80% in the United States, to over 90% in many Muslim-majority countries. I don’t know what you consider “world wide” but this issue does need to be addressed and it doesn’t need to be addressed at the expense of other concerns. > > But it may be useful to address the roots of both in locations where both genders suffer childhood mutilation as the justifications tend to have similar roots and may benefit from common concerns like basic human rights. Why do you accuse me of trying to block any sort of conversation? I’m simply responding to various posts and opinions in this thread that i dont see eye to eye with, with the hope to ultimately align those disparate viewpoints with my own. Im certainly not averse to being educated. I just want responses to my posts to actually be responding to what i post. And i thought this was a thread about circumcision? Not FGM? ETA: and i never said MC wasnt an international issue. What i said was it wasnt an issue _for the most part_ in other parts of the world as it is in the US. In those Muslim countries with 90% rates, does the practice receive any sort of similar social/human rights scrutiny as it does in America? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/160 "2018-11-13T21:50:22Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > It’s not that complicated. Christians who practice circumcison religiously are a ridiculously small minority almost completely living in north east Africa. Copts encourage it because they are surrounded by a Muslim majority although even they wouldn’t say it’s required and Ethiopians (and by extension Eritreans) do it. That’s it. We’re talking maybe 2% of global Christians. There are probably more atheists that circumcise for health reasons percentagewise than Christians that do it for religious reasons. We actually had a controversy about it in the first century and it was resolved pretty firmly on the side of ‘not necessary.’ The vast, vast majority of circumcised people are Muslims, by far. As a percentage of their population, it’s Muslims and Jews. Bringing Christianity into it is muddying waters to make it seem like the attack is less racist than it really is (and it should be noted that the very few Christians that religiously circumcise are also brown people, so that’s of note.) In Anglican countries it is often used as a class indicator which is also used as a socio-economic weapon or indicator. While not as toxic as pure racial bigotry like the anti-Muslim camp that often hijacks these discussions I think it is a bit of a stretch to claim that the British Royal families preference for the practice is completely separated from the Anglican Church. That claimed royal divinity blocked a prohibition on religious grounds like some Christian sects. The Xhosa and the British royals use it as a power differentiation, and just like race, which is a social construct not based on fact, the effects are very real. This is part of the reason you won’t see the same ban in the UK as you do in say Germany. The complications greatly outweigh the small benefits on UTIs etc… and the similar social identities and pressures push it. The American practice really probably is based in 20th century American Eugenics. epidemiologists were trying to explain why Jews lived longer than other groups of people picked up on the practice and being based on UK law and the royals acceptance of the practice as a class identifier probably happened. I think long term cultural changes based on facts is what will change both practices over time as religious and cultural traditions tend to block movement based on human rights. I do agree that it is often used as a topic for debasing groups that one does not belong to. But just look at this thread where rare, minimal advantages are used to ignore the very real impacts. In the US the porn industry also helps perpetuate this myth but I have no idea on how to help there. In general admitting that these are due to archaic social norms will help IMHO, as in general in all countries and for both genders the facts about the negative impacts are hidden by both pop culture and biased studies which seek to maintain the status quo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=9)