# Infant genetal mutilation is a blood sacrifice to the demon Yahwe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321 "2018-11-10T20:59:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/161 "2018-11-13T22:00:51Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > In the US the porn industry also helps perpetuate this myth but I have no idea on how to help there. I don’t know how much of a current porn consumer you are but I would say that the porn industry is actually ahead of the curve on this issue. I see _lots_ of uncut penises in hetero porn these days. While it might not be 50/50, it’s not that far from it. ETA: there is plenty to criticize the porn industry for, like perpetuating racist stereotypes and fixed, unequal gender roles. I just dont think this issue is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/162 "2018-11-13T22:02:50Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Why do you accuse me of trying to block any sort of conversation? I’m simply responding to various posts and opinions in this thread that i dont see eye to eye with, with the hope to ultimately align those disparate viewpoints with my own. Im certainly not averse to being educated. I just want responses to my posts to actually be responding to what i post. And i thought this was a thread about circumcision? Not FGM? > > ETA: and i never said MC wasnt an international issue. What i said was it wasnt an issue _for the most part_ in other parts of the world as it is in the US. In those Muslim countries with 90% rates, does the practice receive any sort of similar social/human rights scrutiny as it does in America? Because you are blocking a discussion about the common causes by trying to equate the evilness of the result despite the cause. The roots of these barbaric practices are similar despite the costs being very unequal. You are trying to frame the discussion as being separate, which is understandable with the hijacking that can happen with some groups like “mens rights” groups which seek to block progress using tit for tat discussions. We have very little ability to make substantive cultural changes in lets say Muslim countries directly but we do have the ability to make changes in our own society. There are also serious concerns about religious freedom but those ideas do change over time based on social norms and rarely change when directly attacked. Pointing out that issues many middle aged men can’t use condoms to completion in likely part because they are circumcised is important to call out. These practices do effect sexual satisfaction and one shouldn’t inflict this on your child if you do not have deeply held religious beliefs. Pretending that it is better because “men last longer” or other common western justifications is not productive. As Madison pointed out in federalist paper 10, attacking freedoms to reduce the impact of faction is worse as it destroys freedom itself. One must target the ability of faction to maintain power and in this case it is by fighting the ignorance that circumcision is often a positive thing. More complications happen than UTI or STDs are prevented. For a not safe for work graphical example of what some of these complications look here. [Canadian Urological Association guideline on the care of the normal foreskin and neonatal circumcision in Canadian infants (full version) - PubMed](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29381458) Our “western” myths are just as barbaric as any other “world” myth on this subject for both genders. But we like to give ourselves a pass while using it as ammo to dehumanize other groups. We just need to address the truth that the emperor has no clothes. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/163 "2018-11-13T22:04:41Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I don’t know how much of a current porn consumer you are but I would say that the porn industry is actually ahead of the curve on this issue. I see _lots_ of uncut penises in hetero porn these days. While it might not be 50/50, it’s not that far from it. I admit I am not an expert here…not out of moral choice but just due to an um…active imagination. I had heard from friends who happened to be workers in the field that it was an issue 20 years or so. But kudos to the industry if they did try to address that. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/164 "2018-11-13T22:09:57Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Because you are blocking a discussion about the common causes by trying to equate the evilness of the result despite the cause. > > The roots of these barbaric practices are similar despite the costs being very unequal. You are trying to frame the discussion as being separate, which is understandable with the hijacking that can happen with some groups like “mens rights” groups which seek to block progress using tit for tat discussions. > > We have very little ability to make substantive cultural changes in lets say Muslim countries directly but we do have the ability to make changes in our own society. > > There are also serious concerns about religious freedom but those ideas do change over time based on social norms and rarely change when directly attacked. > > Pointing out that issues many middle aged men can’t use condoms to completion in likely part because they are circumcised is important to call out. These practices do effect sexual satisfaction and one shouldn’t inflict this on your child if you do not have deeply held religious beliefs. > > Pretending that it is better because “men last longer” or other common western justifications is not productive. As Madison pointed out in federalist paper 10, attacking freedoms to reduce the impact of faction is worse as it destroys freedom itself. One must target the ability of faction to maintain power and in this case it is by fighting the ignorance that circumcision is often a positive thing. > > More complications happen than UTI or STDs are prevented. > > For a not safe for work graphical example of these complications look here. > > [Canadian Urological Association guideline on the care of the normal foreskin and neonatal circumcision in Canadian infants (full version) - PubMed](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29381458) > > Our “western” myths are just as barbaric as any other “world” myth on this subject for both genders. But we like to give ourselves a pass while using it as ammo to dehumanize other groups. We just need to address the truth that the emperor has no clothes. I dont disagree with anything you’ve said here. Except for your unique definition of “block” in re to a conversation. I am, or have been, tryimg to engage with those i dont see eye to eye with. The last thing i want to do is shut down any conversation. Rather ive been wanting a cogent argument presented to me that makes this discussion make sense to me. Posters such as yourself and Kimstu have helped me in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/165 "2018-11-13T22:16:28Z")
And more compications may indeed result from MC than UTIs and STDs are prevented by them. But the cost/benefit ratio is _still_ substantially higher than that for FGM. Because all you have with FGM is the health complications caused by the procedure itself, with **zero** tangible benefits than could even trivially mitigate those complications. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/166 "2018-11-13T22:18:01Z")
I was circumcised and I couldn’t walk for a year. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/167 "2018-11-13T22:21:02Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > I was circumcised and I couldn’t walk for a year. 😛 Not trying to make light of medical complications from circumcision, but okay, that was funny. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/168 "2018-11-13T22:23:15Z")
I should clarify, the Victorians performed circumcision out of a fear of masturbation, and the royal family’s practice was stopped by princess Diana. The false claims of health effects and the remaining social views from the historical practices by the royal family are what I was referencing. IMHO the cultural bias blocks efforts to fix this. The US is the oddball one that only circumcises males which may make the root causes look like distinct effects, and I don’t know why the US didn’t resort to FGM to stop masturbation too but in most places of the world both practices are common. Opposing FGM and male circumcision is my intent, but I think that the social pressures are similar drivers for both in most of the world and were probably only escaped in the US due to some oddity in the puritan beliefs on female sexuality. I do not claim the life impacts are the same and fully admit that women, once again, get the really bad end of the deal in general here. If we look back to the 1970’s when “loose” women were involuntarily committed to mental hospitals I expect that it wasn’t because we were on morally higher ground but just had differing ideas on sexuality. The health claims are mostly what persists today and do directly relate to the pre-germ theory eugenics ideals being backed up by questionable studies impacted by cultural biases. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/169 "2018-11-13T22:35:35Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Medical or religious grounds be damned, nothing was cut off of me and it makes sex feel better. Good luck pleasing your partner when you shoot in 20 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/170 "2018-11-13T22:39:45Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > Good luck pleasing your partner when you shoot in 20 seconds. I’ll have you know I’m circumcised and am perfectly capable of shooting in 20 seconds. It’s all a matter of experience and training. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/171 "2018-11-13T22:41:18Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > IMHO the cultural bias blocks efforts to fix this. The US is the oddball one that only circumcises males which may make the root causes look like distinct effects, and I don’t know why the US didn’t resort to FGM to stop masturbation too but in most places of the world both practices are common. Oh yeah, clitoridectomy was definitely used as an anti-masturbation “remedy” in the US as well in the 19th century. [Article](https://academic.oup.com/jhmas/article/63/3/323/816601). > [@](#): > > […] some women lost the hood (circumcision) or their entire clitoris (clitoridectomy) at the hands of doctors in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries to cure them of masturbation. […] > > Though masturbation was considered incapacitating since at least the time of Hippocrates, it was not widely accepted as a disease until around 1700. […] > > Doctors treated women for masturbation using all four of the clitoral surgeries and treated women for lack of sexual response by circumcising the clitoris. […] What I don’t know is why it didn’t become a very common “preventive” measure in European/American societies as male circumcision did, rather than remaining a specifically “therapeutic” practice to treat women identified as having sexual problems. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/172 "2018-11-13T23:19:20Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’ll have you know I’m circumcised and am perfectly capable of shooting in 20 seconds. I think that’s due to Phantom Limb Syndrome. Sex for a regular circumcised male could never feel that good. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/173 "2018-11-13T23:39:34Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > I was circumcised and I couldn’t walk for a year. Bravo. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/174 "2018-11-14T00:58:13Z")
Cold, too. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/175 "2018-11-14T01:17:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The social reasons and hypocrisy is similar and this is a thread about male circumcision. The followers of yahweh are by far the most common adherence to these practices for both genders outside of the US where it seems merely to be fashion based. If by “followers of Yahweh” you mean “Jews” you are incorrect. The world-wide population of Jews is something like 15 million or less, but Muslims, the vast majority of which practice male circumcision, number around 1 billion. The practice of MIC by Americans has a well-documented history. It was not fashion that made the practice common, it was an obsession with mental health and a deep-seated fear of sex, especially masturbation, that led to widespread circumcision in the US. After that diminished, it has persisted largely due to the inertia of tradition/society. The MIC rate is dropping in the US due in part to recognition that it’s not needed, and in part because a lot of insurance companies are no longer paying for it as it is not medically necessary in most cases. That won’t lower the total circumcision rate in the US for quite some time, though, as prior generations of circumcised men are still around and it will take them some time to die off. In another hundred years I’d anticipate circumcision rates in the US to be more like Europe’s. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/176 "2018-11-14T01:40:50Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And some Christians. All three is what I meant and it was not an attempt to obfuscate, it is quite precise and descriptive. > > It is the followers of yahweh specifically who seem obsessed by foreskins. Also Australian Aborigines, South Koreans, a bunch of African groups… while the Abrahamic religions have a lot of followers they aren’t the only ones to practice circumcision, lots of other folks have, too. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/177 "2018-11-14T03:06:49Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If by “followers of Yahweh” you mean “Jews” you are incorrect. Well, what he said was: > [@rat avatar](#): > > The followers of yahweh are by far the most common adherence to these practices for both genders outside of the US where it seems merely to be fashion based. […] > > > [@senoy](#): > > > > Just want to point out that what you mean to say is Muslims and Jews, no need to obfuscate. > > And some Christians. All three is what I meant and it was not an attempt to obfuscate, it is quite precise and descriptive. > > It is the followers of yahweh specifically who seem obsessed by foreskins. […] > > > [@senoy](#): > > > > Christians don’t circumcise religiously (except in Ethiopia-don’t ask me, I don’t pretend to understand the nuances of Ethiopian Christianity.) Historically, they have been opposed to it as a pagan practice. […] > > That subject becomes complicated, even seen by some sects as being contrary to the Christian faith, with some groups who placed a bigger emphasis on yahweh being more likely to practice it. This is why I avoided iterating between Muslims, Jews and Christians. > > As I said it was precise, as it is the Yahweh sections of the books that relate directly to this interest in foreskins. > > Yahweh was the god who is deeply obsessed with foreskins, not El etc… ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/178 "2018-11-14T03:38:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Also Australian Aborigines, South Koreans, a bunch of African groups… while the Abrahamic religions have a lot of followers they aren’t the only ones to practice circumcision, lots of other folks have, too. The South Koreans copied it from the West, I already mentioned some African communities and when dealing with a problem you generally target the largest populations first. 1.8 billion Muslims 2.2 billion Christians and 0.014 billion Jewish people in the world the Abrahamic religions are the largest population of circumcisions in the world. An appeal to hypocrisy may be employed as an effective red herring, and ~650K Australian aboriginals in the world, not all of which circumcised or subincised is a drop in the bucket. Samuel, the second half of Genisis, and Jeremiah are Yahwah books. [ul] [li]1 Samuel 18:1-4[/li][li]1 Samuel 18:25-27[/li][li]Genesis 17:14[/li][li]Genesis 34:14-17[/li][li]Jeremiah 9:25-26[/li][/ul] I get that you are trying to apply an argument to suggest I am being anti-semitic, and circumcision is not mentioned in the Qur’an itself but in a hadith and the sunnah. Just like Christians, Islamic scholars often debate the subject of male circumcision, as you would expect in any large population. While Shia’s generally view the practice as required the same is not universally true of Sunni’s and many Quranists view it as forbidden. It is a complex subject so please quit trying to get me to concede that it is anything but a ritual dependent on the particular sect of no matter what bucket they are placed in. Compare that to Yahweh was obsessed with foreskins, which is well documented in various offshoots scripture as cited above. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/179 "2018-11-14T04:07:23Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > Obamacare is enslaving me to participate in blood sacrifice to yahwe, a fiery, murderous, blood demon from a desert cult. why has nobody addressed the demon in the room? And rather than a blood demon, I thought he was a storm god. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321/180 "2018-11-14T04:07:53Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Ya it is easy to not care about male circumcision if you aren’t one of the men where who happened to have the procedure go horribly wrong. > > The point is it also wouldn’t have been a problem if it had never been done, but ask David Peter Reimer who was reassigned as a girl and raised female after a botched circumcision. Oh ya, you can’t ask him because he committed Suicide. > > While circumcision resulting in penis amputation is rare it is a real risk for a procedure that is primarily preformed due to fashion or the fetishes of a bronze age god. His procedure was done at age 8 months due to phimosis. The cynic in me has always wondered if the procedure was deliberately botched because Reimer was an identical twin (his twin also committed suicide) and their doctors figured that their teenage parents wouldn’t ask too many questions about all this. Plus, the decision to rename him “Brenda” and raise him as a girl was made when he was about two years old, and kids that age know that boys and girls are not the same thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infant-genetal-mutilation-is-a-blood-sacrifice-to-the-demon-yahwe/824321.md?page=10)