# Infanticide should be legal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711 "2004-02-11T20:23:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/21 "2004-02-11T23:48:35Z")
There have consistently been people posting to abortion related threads who have proposed something similar to the OP. While some might have been trolling, I don’t think the current OP is. As I said, if one accepts the premise that abortion up to the moment of birth is OK, then the conclusion is “not unreasonable” (I hesitiate to call it reasonable). Many, many people in the US support abortion on demand at any time for any reason. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/22 "2004-02-12T00:27:02Z")
Well **Blalron** , what if Daddy kills the kid without Mom’s consent ? Or are you suggesting that only Mom can get rid of the child? ---
**Author:** ![olanv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@olanv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olanv)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/23 "2004-02-12T00:55:14Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > As a staunch pro-choicer, I believe that abortion is acceptable at any point during the pregnancy. I have zero objections to it, because I don’t believe a fetus is a person. I think personhood should be defined by whether you have self awareness and concious thoughts. > > Pro-lifers often seize upon this, and point out that under this system of morality it would be okay to kill a baby that has been born. > > This is exactly what I believe. > > Around the age of two is when people begin to have concious memories. I believe this is the point when you become a person worthy of legal protection. > > I think that if neither biological parent wishes to take responsibility for a child before it reaches that age, they should be able to legally kill it in a humane manner. I think 18 months should be the cutoff point, just in case the child is precocious. I don’t agree with this premise. If you have a kid, you should not kill it. But I also think that it should be illegal to raise a kid without cyanide tabs taped to their forheads too. Let the kid consent to their death, not the parent. Just don’t let the parent allow access to death to be difficult for the child. Also, always let the child be able to kill you, the parent. If you cannot raise a child who doesn’t slip one of their 2000 cyanide tabs into your drink at some point, or who doesn’t take them themselves at some point, you should never have had a child in the first place – you as a human being were incapable of translating an inherent purpose for both their life and your own. My opinion on the matter is that parents are too lazy to place the pressure upon themselves to hmake sure that the giving of life is meaningful, such that you can falsify it. Parents just rely upon “social norms” to justify their laziness, and the fact that they do treat children like objects. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_With_The_Golden_Gun)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/24 "2004-02-12T01:15:08Z")
This brings to mind a shitload of jokes I probably couldn’t repeat in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/25 "2004-02-12T04:49:54Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > And just to make sure there aren’t any early bloomers, perform tests to ensure they haven’t achieved the criteria for personhood yet. Please describe these criteria in more detail. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jimmy1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy1)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/26 "2004-02-12T06:31:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I think personhood should be defined by whether you have self awareness and concious thoughts. Okay so we should be capable of killing all people in a coma? In fact under your reasoning we could terminate the life of any person, regardless of age, who for some reason or another, brain damage, accident, or some other event, no longer has “self-awareness”. So if you got into an accident and slipped into a coma thereby losing your “self-awareness” and consequently you lose your personhood and are no longer a person by virtue of your own reasoning, and your parents can terminate your life at this point despite the fact the doctor has indicated your coma will not be a permanent or lasting condition. This is what you believe in? ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/27 "2004-02-12T06:48:54Z")
Heck, if you skip consciousness and go for ability to sustain life without the assistance of the mother, I know a guy who stands to be aborted in his 170th trimester. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/28 "2004-02-12T10:58:28Z")
I’m sure many would agree that the point at which an organism gains “human” rights as opposed to those afforded to, say, the chicken I ate for dinner last night, is somewhat **arbitrary**. If I can justifiedly kill and eat a chicken, I should be able to do so to an organism with measurably even more primitive brain function. Birth, nor for that matter conception, does not magically bestow any special status on the organism. However, the OP apparently states that personhood is strictly tied to “conscious memory”. This I find just as arbitrary: Clearly an 18 month old organism does not have _no memory at all_ since it recognises people and can even communicate verbally, albeit basically. Does the OP mean _long-term_ memory? If so, does severe amnesia suddenly make me fair game? Furthermore, I am a little disturbed by this appeal to “precociousness”. Does the future A student deserve life in place of the average? A brave new eugenic world, surely? I agree that the magic cutoff point is arbitrary, and we might extend it past birth, perhaps for a few weeks, say. But I would **err on the side of caution** and limit it to birth, or a few weeks before. Two years is _certainly_ past the cow, pig, or perhaps even chimpanzee stage in terms of brain function and “personhood”. ---
**Author:** ![Erasticity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3e96dc/32.png) [@Erasticity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erasticity)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/29 "2004-02-12T11:18:05Z")
my son was born in the 30th week, 2 months early. He required an incubator for five weeks and was fed formula through a GI tube in his nose. 10 minutes after his birth he held my index finger and stopped crying, smiled (sort of) and went to sleep. He’s 20 Months old now but at 1 year old he remembered his grandmother who he’d only seen during his first month home from the hospital. Anyone who can possible start a thread like this one has no children, has probably no intention of having children and renders his opinion on the topic pretty inapplicable through disassociation.(IMHO) On the topic of abortion, I believe its a viable option only to prevent a catastrophic birth defect (someone whos quality of life would be nil) or to prevent death of the mother. Abortion is NOT a viable means of birth control. I mean, if you can’t figure out a rubber, you don’t need to be fuckin’ in the first place! ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/30 "2004-02-12T13:21:33Z")
Hey, please, get out there and try to spread this idea. Best thing that could happen for us pro-lifers. ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/31 "2004-02-12T13:25:15Z")
You don’t have to go to ancient Rome to find infanticide as a form of birth control. In poverty-stricken countries people will still kill babies they cannot afford to keep. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/32 "2004-02-12T13:55:16Z")
The responses so far have been fairly tame. This guy should have several new places through which to defecate by now. **Blalron** , we`re probably not too far from this anyway. The sentences issued to those who kill babies seem to be getting more lenient by the month, and the cases of infanticide seem to be on the rise. To speed up the process, be sure to elect very liberal politicians who will in turn appoint very liberal judges. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/33 "2004-02-12T13:59:16Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Killing a live baby is an option that simply is not necessary in any context. What if the baby was suffering from a smorgasboard of birth defects and was facing a miserable life, devoid of any reasonable intellect and full of extremely expensive medical care? I think the OP’s “let any mom kill any kid until it’s two” position is indefensable, but I think there are _some_ situations where the situation is more complex… ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/34 "2004-02-12T14:54:24Z")
> [@](#): > > The responses so far have been fairly tame. This guy should have several new places through which to defecate by now. I think we have shown that at 18 months the average human has “personhood” even by the OP’s standards. Even after a few weeks, the average neonate can do things most animals never can. However, his thesis that _newborn_ babies are less conscious than the pigs we kill and eat for breakfast is essentially sound. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/35 "2004-02-12T15:29:56Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I think we have shown that at 18 months the average human has “personhood” even by the OP’s standards. Even after a few weeks, the average neonate can do things most animals never can. > > However, his thesis that _newborn_ babies are less conscious than the pigs we kill and eat for breakfast is essentially sound. Right, and I`ve tried to argue in the past that if you`re going to allow late term abortions then why not take the next step and allow the parents to kill the newborn? Let the parents inspect the baby and then let them decide if they want to keep it. Of course, the line will always keep moving to the left and pretty soon the cuttoff age will be 1 month, then 6 months then 1 year, etc. That`s why I`m an opponent of late term abortions. It`s too close of a call sometimes and society becomes de-sensitised to it. Then, we begin to allow infanticide in certain circumstances (like birth defects, retardation, etc), and then before long it becomes an elective procedure. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/36 "2004-02-12T15:45:36Z")
Agreed, **U\_C** , the slope can be so slippery in either direction that a definitive flag, no matter how arbitrarily placed, is all we can agree to abide by. For the sake of caution, let us leave it where it is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/37 "2004-02-12T16:35:59Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > What if the baby was suffering from a smorgasboard of birth defects and was facing a miserable life, devoid of any reasonable intellect and full of extremely expensive medical care? > > I think the OP’s “let any mom kill any kid until it’s two” position is indefensable, but I think there are _some_ situations where the situation is more complex… There is a difference between **killing** an otherwise viable baby and witholding extreme life support measures to a severely handicapped infant. I wouldn’t classify the latter as “killing”, and so I agree with you on this point. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/38 "2004-02-12T17:06:04Z")
> [@autz](#): > > …dancing to Disco music I though we agreed that you _couldnt’_ torture the child??? ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/39 "2004-02-13T02:38:42Z")
I seriously hope the OP is joking. If not, humanity just reached a new low, boys and girls. **If** you are serious, OP, I beg you: get sterilized. Please. We’ll take a collection and pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711/40 "2004-02-13T03:17:26Z")
This made me think… at wich point an abortion results in the expulsion of the fetus and until which stage it is reabsorbed by the mothers body? I ask because I think that would make a reasonable time lapse to allow abortion. Oh yes, the OP doesn´t seem to know much about babies; heck, I don´t know much about babies but sure as hell they are very concious weeeell before their second birthday [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infanticide-should-be-legal/228711.md?page=3)