# Infinite universe why are things still happening **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963 "2013-05-10T04:49:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/21 "2013-05-13T19:41:31Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The farther back we look in time, the hotter and denser the universe gets. Extrapolating, we can see a point where the universe is infinitely hot and infinitely dense and the laws of space and time completely break down. That seems like a reasonable place to say “the universe starts here”. You certainly can’t have any photons, electrons, or marbles traveling along an uninterrupted infinite trajectory through the Big Bang. What the singularity means in the big bang model is that all timelike curves are incomplete i.e. in a very literal sense you cannot extend time beyond the big bang. Of course this purely within the confines of the mathematical general relativistic big bang model and may not be true once you add, say, quantum gravity to the mix. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/22 "2013-05-13T20:44:03Z")
> [@congoo](#): > > that was the very first thing i wrote. And based on our current knowledge of the universe, it makes no sense. There was no “before” our universe as time came into being with our universe. > [@](#): > > well its 50/50 whether it started from nothing or not .is that correct you dont have proof it started from nothing .evidence that point to it looking that way yes but thats not proof is it? You don’t seem to grasp science, or probability. The two events you are talking about don’t have equal probability, they don’t have any probability. Whatever happened has already happened. What we have are explanations that match up to the evidence with various degrees of success. The Big Bang matches the evidence very well; nothing else really does. I also request that you spend a little more time composing your posts to use standard grammar and punctuation. Your posts are very difficult to read and even more difficult to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/23 "2013-05-13T21:28:22Z")
There’s a problem with going backwards from the Big Bang and saying that the Big Bang occurred for a reason, and the whatever-it-was that caused the Big Bang is part of our Universe to, and the whatever-it-was that caused the cause of the Big Bang is also part of our Universe, and so on and so on. Thing is, we can say that in our Universe events happen because of causes, and causes happen before events. But as far as we can tell, once you go back in time to the very first fractions of a second of the Big Bang, physical laws as we know them now didn’t exist. It’s perfectly possible that at that early time, 2+2 equaled purple, and God could create a burrito so hot that even he couldn’t eat it, and events happened before causes. To some degree we understand the laws of physics and logic as they apply to the Universe as we see it today. But since the Big Bang is what created space and time and the laws of physics, we have no ability to say anything about what caused those things. They may have had no cause, and they certainly didn’t have a “before”, since the Big Bang is what created time. Yes, a universe with no time and no space and no laws of physics and no logic doesn’t make any sense to us humans. That’s because we live in a universe with time and space and laws and logic, and we’d be incapable of existing in, or even imagining, a universe without those things. So the question of “what happened before the Big Bang, what caused the Big Bang” is answered by “We don’t know, and it seems that the laws of physics show that we will never be able to know.” It’s not just that we haven’t figured it out yet, it’s that there is no way for the infinitely hot infinitely dense singularity at the beginning of the universe to preserve any information about any state it had before then. It’s like asking why we can’t go further north when we’re standing at the North Pole, or why we can’t go closer to the center when we’re at the center of the Earth. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/24 "2013-05-13T21:36:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Our universe has a definite beginning, the Big Bang. So we _aren’t_ in the middle of infinite time. Nor does the universe stay the same over that infinite time anyway; much that is possible now won’t be in the distant future. I hesitate to post this, because it might confuse the issue in a bad way, but at least one model has recurrent big bangs. Time ‘outside our universe’ may have existed before our big bang. ---
**Author:** ![congoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@congoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congoo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/25 "2013-05-13T23:24:08Z")
I am certainly not denying bigbang/singularity.i am just saying maybe it came from somewhere/something else and then that goes back and back and so on. > [@](#): > > Lemur866 WROTE > So the question of “what happened before the Big Bang, what caused the Big Bang” is answered by "We don’t know THERFORE i sited 50/50 if we dont know. but then again if your going to say this > [@](#): > > Lemur866 WROTE > But since the Big Bang is what created space and time and the laws of physics, we have no ability to say anything about what caused those things. They may have had no cause, and they certainly didn’t have a “before”, since the Big Bang is what created time. then i cant say that. then again > [@](#): > > Asympotically fat wrote > Of course this purely within the confines of the mathematical general relativistic big bang model and may not be true once you add, say, quantum gravity to the mix. perhaps i can > [@](#): > > The Hamster King wrote > No, you’re not getting it. Photons arrive at their destination instantaneously. They travel zero distance. From the point of view of the photon, it’s not a trip, it’s an event. i wasnt ever talking from the point of view of a photon. > [@](#): > > The Hamster King wrote > That seems like a reasonable place to say “the universe starts here”. You certainly can’t have any photons, electrons, or marbles traveling along an uninterrupted infinite trajectory through the Big Bang true > [@](#): > > The Hamster King wrote > Photons don’t “go” anywhere. They are instantaneous events with their emission and absorption happening simultaneously. Their apparent motion is merely a function of our particular reference frame. So they are moving to a reference frame outside of photons reference frame. SO ARE THEY MOVING OR ARE WE MOVING TOWARDS THEM or is nothing moving but we are only able to talk as though things move ---
**Author:** ![congoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@congoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congoo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/26 "2013-05-13T23:38:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Telemark wrote > You don’t seem to grasp science, or probability. The two events you are talking about don’t have equal probability, they don’t have any probability. Whatever happened has already happened. What we have are explanations that match up to the evidence with various degrees of success. The Big Bang matches the evidence very well; nothing else really does. so what is the probability in your mind then 100%.or what word should i use.there,s one or the other > [@](#): > > Telemark wrote > Whatever happened has already happened. but you dont yet know what has happened > [@](#): > > Telemark wrote > The Big Bang matches the evidence very well so that is not total proof,so you dont know what happened therefore there is a probability of something happening . ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/27 "2013-05-13T23:51:00Z")
> [@congoo](#): > > so what is the probability in your mind then 100%.or what word should i use.there,s one or the other The evidence suggests that the Big Bang happened. There is little or no opposing evidence. If we follow that, time itself started with the Big Bang so talking about what happened before it is meaningless. You should say “The evidence suggests the Big Bang theory is correct. There are other theories but the evidence either contradicts them or there is no evidence to support them. I suggest we look for XXXXXXXX to flesh out my idea.” You need to supply the “XXXXXXXXX”, and that’s the tricky part. > [@](#): > > but you dont yet know what has happened We know the universe exists. The probability of that happening is 1. We don’t know the sequence of events that took place to make this happen. It’s impossible to assign probability to an event that already happened. Whether it came about via the Big Bang or via other means isn’t a matter of probability - it’s a matter of supplying evidence and a theory that explains that evidence. > [@](#): > > so that is not total proof,so you dont know what happened therefore there is a probability of something happening . It’s also possible the universe was sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure. What probability would you assign to that? ---
**Author:** ![congoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@congoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congoo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/28 "2013-05-14T00:28:13Z")
But cant we take the eveidence we know and asign a pro to that.of how likely it is to be correct cos that is what i am saying T > [@](#): > > elemark wrote > The evidence suggests that the Big Bang happened. There is little or no opposing evidence. If we follow that, time itself started with the Big Bang so talking about what happened before it is meaningless what you should say is this The evidence suggests that the Big Bang happened. There is little or no opposing evidence. If we follow that, time itself probably started with the Big Bang so talking about what happened before it is probably meaningles. also the percentage you assign to the probably as well > [@](#): > > Telemark wrote > You should say “The evidence suggests the Big Bang theory is correct. There are other theories but the evidence either contradicts them or there is no evidence to support them. I suggest we look for XXXXXXXX to flesh out my idea.” You need to supply the “XXXXXXXXX”, and that’s the tricky part. if it was my main idea here yes i agree. T > [@](#): > > elemark wrote > It’s also possible the universe was sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure. What probability would you assign to that? very little but still a probability say 00000000000.1% from your point of view you can not ask "It’s also possible the universe was sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure"because you have said there is no assigning probability to the way the universe started. ---
**Author:** ![congoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@congoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congoo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/29 "2013-05-14T00:34:53Z")
But cant we take the eveidence we know and asign a probability to that.of how likely it is to be correct cos that is what i am saying i had to fill in probability because i could not edit ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/30 "2013-05-14T00:49:20Z")
One _small_ problem is that probabilities can’t really be applied to single events. What is the “probability” of Germany winning WWII? Zero: they didn’t. What we have to do is generalize: given a thousand worlds, in which something very similar to our own WWII happened, in how many of them would Germany have won? This is getting closer to valid. (After all, we speak of probabilities of roulette wheels, conveniently setting aside the fact that a “perfect” or “fair” wheel cannot exist.) And, yes, referring to an event regarding which we have ZERO information, the default “50% chance” is used, but solely as a concession. If there is no reason to favor “yes” over “no,” then 50% is the position of ultimate negation. The Arkleseizure analogy already fails this criterion: the question itself already contains a fair amount of information. The name, the nose, the sneeze, etc. The phrasing of the concept already entails several overlapping Venn-diagram circles. (What is the probability of John Venn?) ---
**Author:** ![congoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@congoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congoo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/31 "2013-05-14T00:59:26Z")
to be clear i said you should of written it this way because of this T > [@](#): > > ELEMARK wrote > There is little or no opposing evidence. if there is some evidence then there is probability > [@](#): > > Telemark wrote > we don’t know the sequence of events that took place to make this happen. It’s impossible to assign probability to an event that already happened why because you know what has happened therefore theres no probability but you stated “we don’t know the sequence of events that took place to make this happen” therefore we have evidence that it probably happened this way we have evidence and we can assign a probability to that on how likely it is against all other eveidence.that is why i can say this or that evidence is probably more likely to be right.cos it out weighs other evidence. ---
**Author:** ![congoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@congoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congoo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/32 "2013-05-14T01:07:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Trinopus WROTE > > One _small_ problem is that probabilities can’t really be applied to single events. What is the “probability” of Germany winning WWII? Zero: they didn’t. What we have to do is generalize: given a thousand worlds, in which something very similar to our own WWII happened, in how many of them would Germany have won? This is getting closer to valid. This is because we know they didnt. What happens if we didnt know. we only have evidence of who might of one. We compile the different evidence together and assign different probabilitys to which one is most likely.to win ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/33 "2013-05-14T01:21:14Z")
I can’t make heads or tails (pardon the pun) of your arguments. The lack of grammar and punctuation makes it hard enough. You don’t seem to have a basic understanding of science or the principles of logic and probability so it’s pretty difficult to have a meaningful conversation with you. Perhaps you can attempt to restate your premise? Take the time to proofread and punctuate so your idea can be understood. Limit yourself to a single idea and develop it enough that we can discuss it without dragging lots of random concepts into the picture. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/34 "2013-05-14T02:48:10Z")
> [@congoo](#): > > This is because we know they didnt. What happens if we didnt know. > we only have evidence of who might of one. We compile the different evidence together and assign different probabilitys to which one is most likely.to win The problem is how to limit ourselves to ZERO knowledge. Let’s ask, “Who is more likely to win the Hizzinian/Phocebian war?” Now, I’m pretty sure you have zero information on the two sides, because I just made up those two names! So: fine, it’s a toss-up. Fifty-fifty. We can’t make a better assessment than that. We don’t know the relative strengths, the relative assets, the logistical comparison, anything! Maybe the Phocebians have a huge military advantage…but their harvest just failed, so they can’t feed their troops. Nobody knows. But “WWII,” for us, carries a huge amount of information. Even if we spin it all the way back to September of 1939, we know who the Axis is, we know how well equipped the Poles, French, and British are, etc. We have much more than “zero” information. Your notion of “It’s all just a toss-up” only works in the context of zero information. It also only works if we concede a kind of looseness to the concept of probability. What is the probability that I’ll be in jail a year from today? Is it 50-50 because you have zero information about me? But you don’t! You have a fair amount of information. The very fact that I’m a member of the SDMB gives you information. Context is vital! (Spelling is also really, really important!) ---
**Author:** ![congoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@congoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congoo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/35 "2013-05-14T05:10:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Trinopus wrote > Your notion of “It’s all just a toss-up” only works in the context of zero information no because it also works if the inforamtion we have adds up to the same and in my mind the information for and against stacks up to 50/50 > [@](#): > > Trinopus wrote > You don’t seem to have a basic understanding of science or the principles of logic and probability REALLY we will see how it turns out i,ve got this far and i,m still going just ---
**Author:** ![congoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@congoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congoo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/36 "2013-05-14T05:19:46Z")
i tell you what Trinopus you answer my last post which is the last post in this thread(below underlined) and i will bow to your logic.all about heads and tails. Is Everything Inevitable if Time is Infinite? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/37 "2013-05-14T11:36:05Z")
That was me, not **Trinopus** , calling out your lack of knowledge of science. And there’s no link to the other thread, you just posted the title. Here is your post in that thread in its entirety: > [@](#): > > if you take the coin and put 2 heads “sides”.you will see you can no longer say not all > > possibltiys can happen.if i get a machine to flip the coin on to a surface that is dead smooth > > then eventaully i will be able to know that heads will always apppear.any deviancy from it say a > > breeze or a crack on the suface i shall find the cause and again beable to know which side will > > be face up. > so i coin flip can not be used as a event that has two different outcomes from the same cause. > you have to find something without a cause to beable to have a diffent possibltiy. I can’t comment on it because it makes no sense. It doesn’t present a coherent argument for anything. Can you restate your case in clear, concise sentences with proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation? ---
**Author:** ![congoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@congoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congoo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/38 "2013-05-14T17:56:57Z")
Sorry about that mistake . i will try. The heads and tails are representing 2 branches that the universe can take at a given moment. If heads comes up, then tails cant and that branch/possibltiys of the universe is no longer possible. therefore the assumption from that is > [@](#): > > Mijin wrote > As I pointed out in the parallel thread, contrary to popular belief, even with infinite time it is not guaranteed that every possible event will happen. the trouble here is a coin flip is predictable with the right equipment.each movement of the flip has a cause. therefore the assumption that it showed there were 2 possibltiys at a given moment,is simply in the head of Mijin.He thinks this because he doesnt know the result himself.that is not the same way the universe is changing THE UNIVERSE MAY WELL NOT know ITSELF BUT THE DIFFERENCE IS IT STICKS to laws. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/39 "2013-05-14T18:16:11Z")
> [@congoo](#): > > the trouble here is a coin flip is predictable with the right equipment.each movement of the flip has a cause. There’s a lot of very wrong here. The **probabilistic** “coin flip” has little to do with an actual physical coin. A probabilistic coin flip is just a short way of saying “we can’t predict the actual outcome but we know it’ll be one of these two things and they are both equally likely to occur”. It doesn’t even have to be a coin. It just has to be a situation where two events are equally likely and you can’t predict the outcome. Pointing out that you can measure the physical setup of an actual coin and predict it’s landing is irrelevant. That’s no longer a random experiment but a deterministic (vs probabilistic) one. And that’s really the problem here. You use the word “probability” and its associated forms but then turn right back around and argue they are actually all deterministic. But, and this is the truly baffling part, though you argue these events are actually deterministic, you want to assign probabilities anyway. Either these events are deterministic (you can determine the outcome ahead of time) or they are probabilistic (you can’t determine the outcome ahead of time but can determine likelihoods). You are trying to have it both ways - deterministic outcomes but with assigned probabilities, and that makes absolutely no sense. I will reiterate that you should perhaps learn any probability theory at all vs trying to argue based on whatever incorrect and personal version you are currently using. It certainly does not match probability theory as understood by the general scientific public. ---
**Author:** ![congoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@congoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congoo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963/40 "2013-05-14T18:45:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Pointing out that you can measure the physical setup of an actual coin and predict it’s landing is irrelevant. That’s no longer a random experiment but a deterministic (vs probabilistic) one. i know thats what i am saying.it never was a random experiment only from a point of view of someone who doesnt know all the facts. > [@](#): > > The probabilistic “coin flip” has little to do with an actual physical coin. A probabilistic coin flip is just a short way of saying “we can’t predict the actual outcome but we know it’ll be one of these two things and they are both equally likely to occur”. It doesn’t even have to be a coin. It just has to be a situation where two events are equally likely and you can’t predict the outcome. thats ok but you cant then apply that to the universe which is deterministic.we can apply it to help us.but the universe is not changing in that way. > [@](#): > > And that’s really the problem here. You use the word “probability” and its associated forms but then turn right back around and argue they are actually all deterministic no i never muddle the 2.others do though.i think people think that because there are probabilitys about this and that .That that is the way the universe changes.the forget that it is just them not knowing the facts. > [@](#): > > But, and this is the truly baffling part, though you argue these events are actually deterministic, you want to assign probabilities anyway. Either these events are deterministic (you can determine the outcome ahead of time) or they are probabilistic (you can’t determine the outcome ahead of time but can determine likelihoods). You are trying to have it both ways - deterministic outcomes but with assigned probabilities, and that makes absolutely no sense again no i havent .point out the sentence where i have done this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/infinite-universe-why-are-things-still-happening/657963.md?page=3)