# Inflating Election "problems" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 10, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024 "2004-11-10T16:03:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/1 "2004-11-10T16:03:46Z")
I am so irritated by this. I’ve noticed this stuff for the last week, and today one of Salon’s columns did it too. Reporters and commenters and Chicken Littles all over the internet are relying on incident tallies from the Election Incident Reporting System (1-866-OUR-VOTE) to measure just how awful our election system is, just how disenfranchised voters are, just how rife with abuse, fraud, and incompetence the whole process of voting is. Tens of thousands of problems on election day! And that’s the just the people who bothered to call! THE SKY IS FALLING! Apparently not a one of these people did much actual reading on that site. Drill down to Cuyahoga County, Ohio, for example, a county marked deep brick red to indicate how much worse it was then the other counties in the state (and country!). Read some of the “problems” listed: - Voter wants to know if he qualified as an absentee voter (called in Oct). - Voter wants to know where he can get a sample ballot (called in Oct). Okay, those are voters who lack information, but is this really the kind of voting “problem” that should make us rend our garmets, question the election’s outcome, and scream for reform? If you look to problems reported on election day, you see worrisome reports of long lines and hassles from election workers over small typos on voter registration cards. That’s bad. That’s very bad. We have to fix that. But you also see stuff like: - School security guard posted outside polling place Well, what does that mean? I suppose that might be intimidating to some people, but he might be there for a good reason. I know at my school, they wanted to make sure voters stayed separate from the schoolchildren and weren’t mixed up with vistors on school business (who have to wear a pass). Maybe that’s what this guy was doing? Here’s one classified “VOTER INTIMIDATION:” - Voter told they would have to remove or turn inside out “KERRY” t-shirt. Voter was allowed to vote after doing so. How is this intimidation? If the state has laws against electioneering in the polling place, then yes, voters will have to be asked to remove or cover campaign related items, regardless of the candidate promoted. I’m sorry, that’s NOT intimidation–or if you want to argue that, I’d say it’s intimidation that is unavoidable. One would hope that the request would not be made with hostility and rudeness, but the incident doesn’t say anything about how they were asked. I am concerned as the next guy about problem with our election system. I’m glad that advocates are trying to get a handle on what’s happening to voters when they try to vote, and what problems they are encountering. But they’ve got to be a little more careful how they classify these reports. And people who are citing those reports, including you, whats-your-name at [Salon.com](http://Salon.com), need to use their heads, too. Otherwise one starts to wonder how much of their reporting is crap. And if concerned reform-minded me is wondering that, what do you suppose goes through the heads of people in the position/power to make these changes but who already appear resistant? Grrr. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/2 "2004-11-10T16:17:55Z")
The ABC national report did a segment on this last night as well. They said that while they’ve been contacted by numerous people expressing conern about election high jinks, that most reported “incidents” were of an innocent nature, wrongly classified, and that they’ve seen no evidence of organized malfeasance and certainly none on a scale that might have had a measurable effect on the result. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/3 "2004-11-10T16:23:40Z")
But…but…Kery won, I know he did. Right? I agree with the OP. If I heard credible evidence of widespread organized fraud I would be picking up my pitchfork right now. Scattered incompetance yes, widespread fraud no. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/4 "2004-11-10T16:47:20Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > The ABC national report did a segment on this last night as well. They said that while they’ve been contacted by numerous people expressing conern about election high jinks, that most reported “incidents” were of an innocent nature, wrongly classified, and that they’ve seen no evidence of organized malfeasance and certainly none on a scale that might have had a measurable effect on the result. Well, good, that will help me sleep better at night. I haven’t watched much TV since the election, so I had no idea how the usual outlets were reporting stuff. I seem to be plugged into Hysteria Central on the internet, catching the most breathless, outraged reports about election fraud. I probably, myself, am being Chicken Little to bitch about how wrongly the incidents are being reported. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/5 "2004-11-10T16:49:16Z")
Ahhhh. Know your measurement system. Know its strengths, its accuracy and most importantly, its weaknesses. Never take anyone’s numbers on face value, without understand how they were acquired. There are issues with our system - and with the 2000 election so close, I think its worthwhile to find the systemic issues that truly disenfranchise and fix them. We shouldn’t have a significant margin of error, nor should we have anyone entitled to vote who is “discouraged” to do so - via long lines, or inconvience, or lack of information or - most importantly - actual harrassment. But to inflate the complaints that aren’t problems does a disservice to the system we have - and distracts from where the real problems are. ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/6 "2004-11-10T20:05:44Z")
This thread was right above the “[I pit semen trees](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=285436)” one, so maybe that’s why I read the thread title as “Inflating Erection ‘problems’”. :eek: I think I need a nap. I had wondered about all these reports of so-called “election fraud” and “voter intimidation”. I’d heard one or two stories about people jeering others thought to be Bush supporters, but few other specifics. **Cranky** ’s cites make it sound, rightfully, like much ado about nothing. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/7 "2004-11-11T04:00:43Z")
I think it is possible (just barely, farfetched but possible) that the election was rigged, stolen, manipulated, cheated on, to the point of changing who the winner would come out as. I don’t lose much additional sleep over it. Not that I have much sleep left over to lose. Bad enough to have to contemplate the possibility that America has George Bush for a second term as a consequence of the majority of Americans voting for the sonofabitch despite all he’s done and openly intends to do. It’s almost a tossup as to whether it’s a relief or an increased horror to consider that maybe instead the American experiment in democracy has been conquered from within by a winthirsty candidate with a slick enough strategy and enough support in the right places to pull it off. I do totally grok the sensation of nausea and unbelief at the notion that Kerry did not get more votes than Bush. It’s like finding that most Americans think it would be a good idea for the Church to issue proclamations about what is true and the government implement those proclamations as national policy rather than rely on the scientific method, or something like that. Your brain comprehends it as a hypothetical postulate but can’t come to terms with “it actually did happen”. It hasn’t gotten much better during the first week. Some guy crawled out onto the World Trade Center site and offed himself, preferring to be a dead person to being a US citizen under George Bush for a second term. It’s not like that for me, but I have to say I don’t find that guy’s behavior totally incomprehensible. This is bad shit. Election “problems”? The wrong guy won. I can’t think of a positive spin to put on that. Not even “the Democrats are better off letting the Republicans reap what they’ve sown”. Uh uh. The forthcoming decisions of the Bush Supreme Court on Oregon physcian-assisted suicide, the overturning or marginalization of _Roe v Wade_, and the expected expanded attempts to impose Christianity-inspired public policy upon us, not to mention the resowing and fertilization of the fields of terrorism to yield more terrorism to yield more votes for these folks… look at Israel. Never mind what Sharon is currently doing (odd and unprecedented), the electorate that most recently returned him and his party to power did not anticipate or have reason to anticipate anything other than more of the same, i.e., the continuation of heavy-handed iron-fisted policy against the Palestinians, who in turn, like the terrorists we worry about, were driven to more violence and were handed more recruits from those who suffered from the coercive Sharon administation policies and activities. As long as the people of Israel are more scared of the terrorism that their government continues to foment than they are of the irrationality of their government, they keep re-electing them. And when someone of vision and charisma tries to take them in another direction (Rabin), the people of this mindset will do whatever it takes to stop them. That’s what I’m afraid we’re stepping into. ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/8 "2004-11-11T05:34:46Z")
Wikipedia now has an entry on the voting irregularities in the election. [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_controversies_and_irregularities#Evidence_of_electronic_voting_bias). ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/9 "2004-11-11T05:37:44Z")
> [@Asylum](#): > > Wikipedia now has an entry on the voting irregularities in the election. [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_controversies_and_irregularities#Evidence_of_electronic_voting_bias). Well, that’s annoying. When I clicked on the link earlier all it said was “You lost. Get over it.”, but it’s changed now. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/10 "2004-11-11T13:21:46Z")
Found online [here](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/9/154444/325). Seems both legit and rational. Assuming it’s legit, the Ohio Democratic Party surely desires that it be publicized, so I don’t see any reason not to post it in its entirety. Mods, do what you feel you must if you don’t concur. > [@](#): > > Dear writer, > > Because of the massive requests for information I am unable to give you a more detailed response at this time. I hope this fact sheet answers your concerns. > > Thank you, > > Dan Trevas, Ohio Democratic Party Communications Director > > * * * > > Every Vote Will Be Counted! > > The Ohio Democratic Party shares Sen. John Kerry’s insistence that every vote be counted. > > Here is where we stand in Ohio: > > ► After the Unofficial Results reported Nov. 2 - George Bush leads John Kerry by 136,483 votes. > > ► Provisional ballots will be counted. > > ``` > 155,000 provisional ballots have been cast and not yet been counted. > > County Boards of Elections have until Friday to verify the eligibility of those who cast a provisional vote. Counting will begin, Saturday, November 13. County Boards have until. Dec. 1, 2004 to certify their vote totals and report them to the Secretary of State. > > ``` > > ► Two Democrats and Two Republicans sit on each County Board of Elections. > > ``` > Tabulations of the votes will be done in a bi-partisan manner. Only if there is a tie vote on the board does the decision go to the Secretary of State. > > ``` > > ► Overseas absentee ballots have not been counted. > > ``` > Overseas Absentee ballots by civilians may have been received by County Boards of Elections by Nov. 2 that have not yet been counted. The Boards of Elections will count those votes. > > Overseas absentee ballots by military have until, Friday, Nov. 12 to arrive and be counted by the Boards of Elections in the final total. > > ``` > > ► 93,000 punch cards were cast, but a vote for president was not counted. > > ``` > The votes were not counted either because the voter voted for more than one candidate or did not vote for a presidential candidate. These ballots will be reexamined if there is a recount. > > Ohio has a uniform, statewide system for recounting punch card ballots. Hanging chads and dimpled chads are treated uniformly throughout the state. > > ``` > > ► Examination for errors going on in all 88 Ohio counties. > > ``` > A Vote Error on Election night gave George Bush 3,893 more votes in a Franklin County precinct than actually cast for him. That error was found by comparing the unofficial abstract of votes casts by precinct to votes for each candidate. Officials in all 88 counties have been contacted and requested to review for a similar error. > > ``` > > ► No Ohio County used Diebold Electronic Voting Machines > > ``` > Ohio did not use modern electronic voting machines in this election. Six counties use an older form of electronic voting, which has a means of verifying the accuracy of the vote. In 69 Ohio Counties, punch card ballots were used. > > ``` > > ► Recount - In Ohio a recount is automatic for statewide election if difference in the vote is within 0.25% of the total votes cast. > > ``` > For a recount is the presidential race, this is probably about a 19,000-vote margin between Kerry and Bush. > > Only a losing candidate can request a recount. A recount may always be requested regardless of the closeness of the race. The recount is requested by the losing candidate. The request for a recount must be made within 5 days of the official announcement of the results by the Secretary of State. > > The fee for a recount is set by each Board of Elections and may be between $5 and $10 per precinct. You can limit the recount to specific precincts. The cost is deposited by the person making the recount request at the time of the application based on the number of precincts requested to be recounted. The entire recount and contest procedures are outlined at ORC 3515. > > ``` > > ► Vote Fraud or Mistakes - Information about fraud or mistake can be reported the Ohio Democratic Party. > > ``` > You can leave a message at (614) 221-6563 ext. 134 or email dan@ohiodems.org This information will be share with our legal counsel as the official election tabulations are being made. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/11 "2004-11-11T14:56:14Z")
This needs to be shouted from the highest mountaintop. It would save a lot of bandwidth around here. I need to restate it from the above post: > [@](#): > > **No Ohio County used Diebold Electronic Voting Machines** > > Ohio did not use modern electronic voting machines in this election. Six counties use an older form of electronic voting, which has a means of verifying the accuracy of the vote. In 69 Ohio Counties, punch card ballots were used. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inflating-election-problems/274024/12 "2004-11-11T15:05:12Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > This needs to be shouted from the highest mountaintop. It would save a lot of bandwidth around here. I need to restate it from the above post: I will also add that some states which used a lot of Diebold machines gave Kerry the win. My county uses primarily Diebold Accu-vote optical scan equipment, and according to those vote tabulators, voters in this county pretty much told Bush to take a freakin’ hike.