"Information wants to be free" - What do people who use this term really mean?

I have answered it already; sorry if you didn’t like the answer.

Those 10% who are willing to spend a buck (combined with everyone who buys CDs) are enough to keep the music industry afloat today, and they’d still be enough in a world without copyright. They’d just be paying for a service instead of a product.

Actually, that would be “envious”. :wink:

I meant “jealous” in the sense of “jealously guarding”. They’re resentful, not because they lack something that others have, but because they don’t want anyone else to have the same thing they do.

That’s exactly what I mean by jealousy: someone who says that is upset because he wants to be the only one to benefit. Well, screw him. I’m not worried about appeasing such assholes, and I don’t think there are enough assholes like that to put a kink in my plan.

It really is an absurd position. It’s like whining that others get to listen to a song for free on the radio, even though you paid for the CD. If you don’t feel strongly enough about the album that you want to listen to it on demand, you can wait for it to come on the radio and listen for free too. And under my system, if you don’t feel strongly enough about having a song written that you’re willing to put up some money, you’re also free to sit back, not pay a dime, and listen to the song for free when it’s released - but then you’re also taking the risk that it won’t be written at all, in which case you’ll suffer just like everyone else.

If they can only find a hundred fans, it must be a pretty crappy band. Are you impugning my taste in music? :wink:

In any case, what I’d do in a situation like that is set up a web site with a telethon-style thermometer graph. As people donate, the graph fills up, and when it reaches $20k, the band collects their money and begins work. If it never fills up, the money is eventually refunded at some point, or the band reconsiders and makes a lower offer.

Sites like that, in my experience, are surprisingly effective at collecting money: everyone can see how close they are to the goal, and it’s easier to convince friends to give a few bucks (or previous donors to give a few more) when you’re close to finishing. It also doesn’t depend on a fixed payment amount or number of people… all that matters is how much you collect in total.

Indeed. Unfortunately, it seems that some people are even more concerned with putting a stop to recombination than they are with getting paid. Past threads have been full of gripes like “What if someone puts my song in a commercial for adult diapers? What if someone rewrites my book so the main character is a racist?”

Sure they do… just like I have the right to commercialize my ability to help people cross the street. What I don’t have is the right to keep other people from competing by providing the same thing for free.

scottandrson The point is that they’d be paying for the service, not for the license. If it is easier to get the mp3 from iTunes because their pricing structure is sane they will, rather than dealing with broken mp3s, or mp3s that are actually porn videos.

I don’t go see Nine Inch Nails because their concerts are too expensive. I’m inclined to believe that the recording industry is flagging because they won’t pick a business model that works, not because of mp3 downloading.

Erek

oh yeah, and I am not ADVOCATING a world without copyright, I am saying that I think that they are obsolete, two very different things.

Erek

I’ve said all I can say on this point. You assume that ten percent of downloads will still be paid for when there is no air of illegality about it once copyrights are gone. Good luck with that.

I’ve asked you who will pay for all the music we see today when the law says everyone gets it free, and your answer is “magic people who behave differently than 10,000 years of civilization has taught us they behave”. Good luck with that too.

You’re still not really getting my point, but it’s been done to death. You’re not going to get very many songs out under this system. The people who pay will eventually (given the price tags involved, pretty soon, IMO) get tired of paying, wondering when the rest are going to pony up.

I’ll just say that in addition to not waiting for you to pay the tab at my restaurant, I also won’t wait for you to reciprocate on any round of drinks I might ever buy where you’re involved.

I’m not saying your pop-music-as-public-television scheme can’t work at all, I just don’t think it’s going to be very satisfying musically. Look at Public Television versus commercial television. Public Television is much smaller (as would the amount of music under your system be, whether you like to think so or not), and while the argument can be made that, on the whole, that Public TV is of higher quality on average, it’s not to everyone’s taste. As many shows as you might hate on commercial TV, someone likes them, and I think the culture is well-served by the presence of a larger variety to choose from, even if no one can agree on what’s good and what’s not.

The question, is whether the music world is best served by reducing the flow of new recorded product from an ocean of stuff that many consider crap (although they will never agree on which is crap and which isn’t) to a trickle of arguably higher quality stuff?

This open Beatles and closeted Bob Seger fan says “NO!”

The percentage of downloads that are paid for is irrelevant. What matters is whether those people continue to spend the same amount on music. If X thousand people paying $15 apiece for CDs is enough to keep a band in business, it doesn’t matter whether they make up one-tenth or one-thousandth of the audience - the band’s costs are the same no matter how many people listen to their music.

I believe the number of downloads would increase, but the total amount of money spent on music would remain about the same. Legality is a factor in the decision to use or not use P2P services, but I don’t think it’s a big factor in the decision to spend money on music or not.

Au contraire - I’m the one who’s willing to pay for things that others will benefit from. If we had it your way, no one would buy rounds at all, it’d be strictly separate checks.

Scottandrsn, I think you’re missing an important point. You look at all the illegal free downloading, and predict that bands won’t be able to continue to make a living if this continues. But it’s going to continue. There’s no stopping it. You can put all the digital rights managment software and security devices and any other such things you can imagine onto future recordings.

Those copy-protected versions are going to remain copy protected for a few days, long enough for someone to run the file through a descrambler and share the unprotected file. The only alternative is to make it illegal to own general purpose computers, people will only be allowed to own computers monitored 24 hours a day by the record companies.

You’re worried about what will happen to music, you say that these damn meddling kids today aren’t spending money on music since they can get everything for free. So you slam people who argue for a different model. But what you don’t understand is that to keep our current model isn’t an answer either, it will lead to the exact same result you complain about…no one can make money from recorded music. You can’t throw every 14 year old downloader in jail. You can’t rely on a technological lockdown except to protect files temporarily…for a few days. You can’t rely on altruism. You can’t rely on a social contract.

So right now, right here, our current model is broken and is going down in flames. What are we going to do about it? Insist that our current model is the only possible legal and ethical framework? That won’t work, that’s just signing a suicide pact.

Our current copyright framework came from a particular technology. Before the printing press there was no such thing as copyright, and rightly so. Every book had to be made by hand. Books were produced for sale, but very few, since they were hugely expensive luxury items. No one authored books with the intent to make money…you might make money producing physical books, but you couldn’t make money AUTHORING books. Yeah, an author “owned” his work…but he couldn’t sell it, since no one could buy it. But of course, most authors were dead, and had been dead for centuries. There was almost no market for new works. People authored works for reasons of their own, not because they wanted to make money.

But of course, this meant very little new work. Then along comes our friend the printing press. Suddenly the physical work of making a copy of a book drops to a fraction. You could author a story, print up thousands of copies and sell them, and make a small amount of money. Suddenly we have a new job…the professional writer, someone who could make a modest living writing books. But we notice a new problem. Anyone who likes could print copies of the author’s book and sell them. How can the author make money now? We enjoy the expansion of the useful arts and sciences that professional authors give us, how do we foster this new innovation?

And so we invent the idea of copyright…we’ll give the author of a book a limited exclusive right to print copies of his book. This is pretty easy to monitor, since printing books is an industrial process and requires fixed capital. There are only a certain number of printing presses around, if someone prints illegal copies it will be pretty easy to track down who broke the copyright. And since the whole point of breaking the copyright is to make money, the simple remedy is for the author to sue the copyright breaker and the copyright breaker would have to turn over the money, plus whatever punitive damages are deemed appropriate.

And when the technology for recording music came along, it was pretty easy to adapt the existing copyright scheme to cover music. It took a lot of money to press a vinyl record. The only reason someone would spend that kind of money would be if they hoped to make money themselves. But this was fairly difficult, since it would be easy to trace the bootleg records back to the printer. This printer would presumably be making some money and have a capital investment in his plant. The money could be seized, the equipment forfeited.

So it wasn’t altruism that prevented copyright violation in the past. Potential violaters had a justified fear that they would be discovered, they had a lot to lose, and copying cost a lot of money. Remove the monetary incentive to violate copyright and violations dwindle to a trickle. Libraries were a potential threat to authors…people could read books for free…but libraries still had to purchase the works, and only one person at a time could access the works.

Controlling copying was a pretty good rough proxy for demand for the work. Yes, more than one person could read a copy of a book, a person could listen to a particular record multiple times. But no one would purchase a copy of a book they didn’t want, or produce a copy of a book they couldn’t sell. It was controllable, the law and the ethical framework behind the law matched the technology. The law was enforceable. Yes, there were copyright violations, just like there are murder violations, and sometimes people got away with copyright violations. But effort involved in copying was high, the risk of being caught were high, the rewards were low.

And then along comes the internet. Yes, we had home taping before, you could tape your records and tapes and give them to your friends and lots of people did. But it wasn’t an overwhelmingly widespread practice, since the tapes themselves cost money and it took some effort to set up…maybe only a few minutes of work per copy, but still. But now, files could be shared for no cost. The person sharing the file incurs no costs, the person downloading the file incurs only the cost of finding the track they want in a sea of garbage.

People can copy works with essentially no effort. In the old days, producing thousands of physical copies of a work and giving them away for free was insane, because it would cost so much. Yes, people did it…giving away Bibles, or vanity press, or suchlike. But only the very dedicated would do such a thing.

Nowadays, the effort involved in copying is zero, it costs me nothing if a million people make a copy of a file on my computer. From a short-term perspective I have no incentive NOT to let people copy my files. What do I care? It doesn’t cost me anything. I let you copy my files, you let me copy your files, they let us copy their files, and pretty soon everyone’s doing it.

In the old days costs were high, risks were high, and rewards were low. Nowadays the cost is zero, the risk is extremely low, and the rewards are high. Aaaaaaand, what changes in behavior might we expect to see, now that the incentives have been changed so radically by a change in the technology? Yep, we see good old human nature at work, people respond to the incentives in front of them. There sure is a lot of illegal copyright violation going on nowadays, right?

So what are we going to do about it? Nothing? Enforce our existing laws more widely? Enforce our existing laws more harshly? That’s not going to work. You could shut down copyright violators before, since they were violating copyright in the hope of making money. With no money no one bothers. But a 14 year old in his mom’s basement isn’t sharing files to make money. To enforce the laws widely would require an unprecedented amount of police work. How many FBI investigators will you pay for to build cases against 10 million 14 year old kids? And exactly what would be their punishment? Say you fine them double the amount they would have been charged if they bought the file from a music store. Say $28 per album, or say $3 per track. How much money do you think that 14 year old kid has?

And this still makes no sense. I can go to the record store and buy a new CD for $14. I can write a script that will fill up my hard drive with copies of the album, and when my disk is full delete them and start over. Suppose I run the script until I’ve created a million copies of the CD and deleted all of them. I’ve violated the author’s copyright 1 million times. Should I be fined $28 million dollars? For what? What exact harm did I do to that particular artist? Yes, I violated their copyright, I broke the law. What should happen to me? Did I really cause $28 million dollars in damage? Or did I cause $0.00 in damage?

Harsher punishments, more punishments won’t work. Technology has radically transformed the incentives to violate copyright, our existing laws and ethics only worked under a different system of incentives.

So is the solution to change the technology? That’s one idea. But will it really work? Sure, you can require everyone to imbed digital rights management into every device capable of playing music. Is that going to work? Every computer, every tape player, every CD player? And how exactly do you prevent people from stripping out the DRM and producing clean copies? Sure, very few people are going to be able to do this, in theory you’d go back to the days when you could trace copyright violations back to the source and shut down the source. But once a clean copy is produced it becomes available to everyone, it doesn’t cost anyone anything to copy or download or upload. It takes over. And DRM schemes are going to be cumbersome and have to be changed and upgraded often. How many people are going to pay for content that might or might not work on their player, that they can only listen to on one device, their device locks up unexectedly or crashes like Windows 3.1. Whose going to pay for a copy that’s a pain in the ass when they can get a clean copy for free?

The incentives are all wrong, you can’t stuff digital computing back into the bottle without destroying the usefulness of digital computing. If you try this path people will just work around it. Incentives. Human nature. A copyright scheme will only work if it’s easier for the majority of people to comply with it than break it.

So the system is broken. It is going to change. Industries are going to be destroyed. And there’s nothing we can do to stop it. All we can do is decide on a rational new scheme that also works to promote the useful arts and sciences. It may not be as effective as the one we used to have. Maybe there will be less music, less good music, more crap, who knows? But complaining that we’re going to have less music in the future doesn’t give us more music. Maybe there will be no more professional musicians in the future, and our only recorded music will be music recorded in the 20th century.

Or maybe not. We need a scheme that rewards people in some way for producing recorded music that people enjoy. We can only prevent ubiquitous file sharing with difficulty. How about a scheme that doesn’t rely on prevention of copying and sharing?

Nowadays people pay money for entertainment and communications services. People pay a monthly bill for cable TV, for a phone connection, for internet access, for satelile radio. Why not move to a service model for music? For (say) $40 dollars a month you can listen to any version of any song ever recorded any time you want as many times as you want. You can copy the files if you want, but why would you? You aren’t going to cancel your subscription when you decide you’ve got enough music, people don’t tape thousands of hours of cable TV and cancel their cable and watch the tapes. Of that $40, part would go to support the physical hardware…the servers, the networking, paying the DBAs, etc. Another part would go to the artists. It wouldn’t be too hard to keep track of what everyone’s listening to and divide up the fees that way. If 1 million subscribers listen to Brittney Spear’s new single this month, she could get 5 cents a listen…that would be $50,000 dollars. Maybe today’s pop stars make more money per month, but most musicians make much much much less.

If Brittney wants to promote herself, she can hire promoters, or sign with an established promotion firm. It doesn’t matter, since the relationship between Brittney and her promoters, managers and agents has nothing to do with the customers or the service provider.

Even if a scheme like this doesn’t work very well, it’s sure to work better than our current model. I agree that a system that relies on the altruism of artists to produce new material isn’t going to see much new material produced. But a system that relies on the altruism of consumers isn’t going to work either. It’s a classic tragedy of the commons…everybody wants lots of new music, and they’re mostly willing to pay for it. But if the benefits for pirating are realized by individual consumers and the costs of pirating are born by the whole market then no one has an incentive not to pirate, even if it means destroying the market. Demanding that consumers be more altruistic isn’t going to help. Punishing individual consumers harshly for individually trivial offenses isn’t going to help either.

The only answer is to decouple compensation for the artists from the act of copying the file. There has to be some other way to compensate the artists, since file copying is impossible to control any more. And by “has to be”, I just mean “has to be or we won’t have musicians who make their living by recording music”. Maybe professional recording artists are going to go extinct no matter what we do, but our current copyright scheme is a GUARANTEE that they’ll go extinct. Abandoning copyright entirely sounds crazy, but it would be an improvement on our current broken system. Unenforceable and widely ignored laws are bad laws. There’s bound to be multiple schemes that are an improvement on both de jure anarchy and our present system of de facto anarchy.
We need to settle on something that works and compensates artists in some way, even if it’s only a trickle compared to what they’re getting now. But artists are really only getting a trickle today, the record companies get the vast majority of the money from recorded music and the artists get a pittance. A scheme where artists get 75% of the money from recorded music instead of the 5% they’re getting today would support 15 times the amount of music production if everyone spent the same amount of money on music. Even if in 10 years consumers only spend 1/10 of what they now do for recorded music we’ll still have more new music than we have today. Maybe it isn’t possible to give artists 75% of the revenues, maybe it isn’t possible to get people to pay even 1/10th of what they now spend. But it doesn’t seem far fetched for artists to get a much much larger share of smaller pie. How small the pie will be is speculative, who knows, it may be a larger pie for all we know. But a smaller industry doesn’t mean fewer artists, it just means fewer music stores, fewer CD pressing plants, fewer advertising executives, fewer lawyers, fewer entourage members.

If you think recorded music is going to go away you’re insane. A true musician plays because that’s the thing they want to do most in the world. They get jobs just so they can eak out an existance so that they can play. It’s really easy to record music, just hook up a minidisc to the amplifier and you have a great recording. Then you put it on your computer and turn it into an mp3 and share it on your website.

If people who are musicians for purely commercial and ego-wanking reasons go extinct, I believe the world will be better for it. Sure the net will be populated by crap made my 14 year olds in fruity loops, but there will also be peer review processes by which viral memes spread.

And we’re going to have have to be more interdependent with one another, like we used to be in the tribal model. The whole idea of being your little suburban island in a sea of humanity is a fantasy that’s going to go away, and very few people are going to be able to survive like that. I know the newer system that is coming around works because I live in it. I am living in your future. One day, yuo’ll wake up and realize the sky hasn’t fallen, and there is still great music out there, but until you do, please think long and hard about this.

Erek

Lemur866, I wan’t going to post again to this thread, but I thought your considered post deserved a reply from the person it was directed at.

I am a high school Computer Science Teacher and website admin, and have been a database admin and programmer in the past. I have also been a musician.

When Napster first appeared, the college students who sorked for me took to it in droves, and always expressed bewilderment and resentment that artists were against them using it.

Because we are used to consuming music for free over radio (for which the artists are reimbursed), and considering the popularity of downloads, there ought to be a way to pay the artists while allowing this consumption. I could see an audio version of TiVo+ cable or satellite, which is kind of what you describe, working to some extent.

I’m no big fan of copyright laws as they are currently formulated, and I am certainly no fan of the music business as it currently exists. But it does give us lots and lots of music covering, despite complaints to the contrary, a fairly wide variety. I didn’t see that situation occuring within Mr2001’s plan, and have explained, in as much detail as I can muster, the reasons why I think it wouldn’t preserve that variety. If I had to choose only between the two, I’d choose to beef up the current system that go with the notion that human nature will change drastically all of a sudden. But something else might work. I just can’t see for the life of me what it could be.

The problem with “Information want to be free” (and this whole music hijack is really just the most visibly current application of that notion) is, as some other posters have pointed out: “Who says we have to do what information wants?” The whole problem arose because the same problems that occured in software duplication had not been resolved by the time high-quality compact digital music files arrived on the scene. What makes a certain amount of sense in the arena of functional computer software makes very little sense in the arena of entertainment.

Granting information its total freedom within our society is not worth impoverishing the culture, IMO. If the actual content and amount of the free information is heavily compromised by its being paid for by a minority (assuming such a support system could even be made to work), as opposed to the masses, what does it matter that we receive it for free?

Maybe I’ve missed something, but so far there doesn’t seem to be any way in the new system proposed by Mr. 2001 to deal with plagiarism.

I’m a hobby writer/artist. I love what I do. But I’d love even more to be able to make a living off of it. Right now, I’m trying to sell my skills as a commissioned artist, so I’m all for free distribution - hey, free advertising! :smiley:

(I would also love a world where I could publish my fanworks, and since I’m one of those weird nice people, I’d fully give credit where credit was due.)

But, if someone decides to erase my signature from the picture, that’s not so good. Even worse is if they try to pass the art off as their work, and then sell it. :mad:

Under current copyright law, I have legal recourse against these types of things. But in Mr. 2001’s system, what happens when somebody with a computer and a photomanipulation program takes my works, puts their signatures on it, and runs a website called “I Drawz teh Anime”?

Lemur866, that was a fantastic analysis, and sums up my feeling exactly. Thank you.

dotchan, I sympathize, and see where plagiarism has to be dealt with in whatever model we decide to pursue. Is it possible we can follow an academic model, and allow ‘borrowing’ from past works, as long as sources are credited? And in the absense of this crediting, the original creator can bring suit?

I’m still not sure how I feel about the creator being able to refuse the use of their work to anyone (for every pro situation, I can see a con), but this addition to a much freer copyright model would at least punish wholesale copying.

And if sources are credited, would not the success of one derivitive work drive interest for the original? That’s quite often the case in literature (and film, for that matter).

How I see to salvage copyrights if you don’t want them to go the way of irrelevance is this. The corporations with their wild abuse of copyright doesn’t help either.

Take them back to a limit of 14 years. If you haven’t profitted from your work in 14 years, you don’t deserve to keep doing so. I disagree with any system that enforces this sort of meal ticket. If a company is not working on bringing a product to market, they lose the patent after 2 years.

As for the social component, the organizations need to wakeup and realize that the market simply won’t bear the prices they think it should. The cost for bandwidth to host a song is considerably less than .25cents per download, if it were that cheap people might go and pay out of the convenience of not having to search for a good copy on the illegal venues. Bandwidth is going to increase again in the next two years as Fiber becomes the norm, and people will be able to download more. If you make it .50 cents to download an old movie, people might watch it over and over again, and be willing to pay for it.

There are rational models for it, but we are nowhere near them. If we don’t start hitting the models closer to the mark, people are going to ignore the law.

Erek

You sue them for fraud. They’re lying to the public by claiming they, not you, put in the effort to produce those works. I have no problem with requiring people to give credit when they distribute copies or derivative works, but you don’t need copyright to enforce that.