# Inglourious Basterds (Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 21, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inglourious-basterds-spoilers/507254 "2009-08-21T23:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inglourious-basterds-spoilers/507254/261 "2009-12-01T14:25:55Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Sorry for resurrecting a sorta-Zombie here, but I just saw the movie last night so I can finally participate in this discussion! > > What’s this “showing him _at the end_” stuff? Zoller was _always_ a cold-blooded Nazi. He was never anything else, and the film never took any great pains to show us that he was anything else. I think the scene where he moves from “charming” to “dangerous” is my favorite for precisely that reason. Despite the fact that he was cute and had a nice smile, he was _always_ dangerous to her. He put her life in danger again and again and again, and nothing she said could make him stop. His constant unwanted attention essentially victimized her and put her life in danger until he finally did kill her. At 300, his body count might not have been as high as Landa’s, but he was Landa’s double in every significant way. Somebody who could be charming, when necessary, but was always represented in the film as a cold-blooded killer who could end Shoshana’s entire existence, and who, it turns out, would be willing to do just that to get his way. > > QT subverted the Rom-Com genre from the very beginning by having the guy be completely and utterly irredeemable. Sure, the heroes are often assholes and jerks in Rom-coms, but they’re not cold blooded killers who can sit in a bird’s nest for three days, methodically picking off soldier after soldier and then effectively _do it again_ for the glory of the Fatherland. I totally disagree. Him killing legions of enemy soldiers in war is not _remotely_ comparable to Landa hunting down civilian Jews. By this account, guys like General Rommel were no different from the worst SS thug - worse even, as they killed more people. The ‘honourable soldier who happens to be fighting for the wrong side but who redeems himself by finally turning against the real bad guys in the end’ is a long-established plot motif - this accounts for the post-war popularity of Rommel in fiction. In the movie, part of Zoller’s “charm” is that he _appears_ to conform to this stereotype at first - he seems to regard the brou-haha over his military exploits as an absurdity (though he has no choice but to go along with it). It is true that he put her life in danger repeatedly by his infatuation - but he had no way of knowing this, as he did not know she was an escaped Jew. It was an entirely possible plot point that Zoller would end up helping Shosana, and I was kinda dreading that; thankfully, it did not occur. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inglourious-basterds-spoilers/507254/262 "2009-12-01T18:37:12Z")
The thing you have to remember about Tarantino is that the subject of his movies is other movies. _Inglourious Basterds_ isn’t about World War II; it’s about World War II movies. It’s Tarantino’s commentary on _Inglorious Bastards_ and _The Dirty Dozen_ and _Kelly’s Heroes_ and _Where Eagles Dare_ and _Army of Shadows_ and _Guns of Navarone_. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inglourious-basterds-spoilers/507254/263 "2009-12-01T19:00:22Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I totally disagree. Him killing legions of enemy soldiers in war is not _remotely_ comparable to Landa hunting down civilian Jews. By this account, guys like General Rommel were no different from the worst SS thug - worse even, as they killed more people. > > The ‘honourable soldier who happens to be fighting for the wrong side but who redeems himself by finally turning against the real bad guys in the end’ is a long-established plot motif - this accounts for the post-war popularity of Rommel in fiction. > > In the movie, part of Zoller’s “charm” is that he _appears_ to conform to this stereotype at first - he seems to regard the brou-haha over his military exploits as an absurdity (though he has no choice but to go along with it). It is true that he put her life in danger repeatedly by his infatuation - but he had no way of knowing this, as he did not know she was an escaped Jew. > > It was an entirely possible plot point that Zoller would end up helping Shosana, and I was kinda dreading that; thankfully, it did not occur. I didn’t mean that he was as morally culpable as Landa when it comes to ALL the men he has killed, or comparing enemy soldiers to Jews, but I do think we’re supposed to ask ourselves what sort of man he must be to kill that many people (just as we’re supposed to keep that uncomfortable question in mind when looking at the Inglorious Basterds). And I do think he is culpable for repeatedly putting Shosana’s life at risk when _she told him to leave her alone_. His refusal to listen to her, to respect her wishes, to realize that he was unwelcome wasn’t at all a result of “Nice Guy” syndrome, but rather, the result of the fact that he was a man and he was going to force his will onto Shosana whether she liked it or not. His charm worked the same way that Landa’s charm did (“Oh good! I love rumors!”). It was just a way to wear down defenses until he could finally get what he wanted, and he really, truly didn’t care that she didn’t want it. Shosana might have been fighting Landa, and by extension the entire high command of the Third Reich, but her relationship (such as it was) with Zoller was that battle writ small. Zoller imposing his will on a resisting woman. Zoller first cajoling than demanding her submission. And Zoller finally taking her life. He might have had slightly different motives from Landa, but he was a _Nazi_. The sort of Nazi that remained a Nazi even when he took his uniform off. We saw examples in the movies of soldiers who appeared to be doing their duty because they had to, and the example of Landa who did his job because it was his job and he was the best at it, but I believe Zoller was the type who did his job because he _wanted_ to. I think his dismissal of his heroism wasn’t at all a dismissal, but just another ploy to seduce Shosana (and the audience). ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inglourious-basterds-spoilers/507254/264 "2009-12-01T20:12:03Z")
From reading the first and last pages of this thread, I don’ t think anyone actually hated the movie as much as I did. The very first scene when Landa is introduced, was awesome. And then we get to the baseball bat scene, and I’m thinking–am I supposed to be cheering this guy on? I thought the movie was going to take this “Nazi=EVIL” schtick and turn it on it’s head. Instead, it went so over the top with it, that I really couldn’t tell whether the movie was really showing all it’s cards in being a shameless one dimensional Nazi hating jerkfest, or I was just being taken in by a very edgy woosh. I should have known what I was getting into, but all I’d known about the movie was the title, and overall internet presence and exposure. Sill, the amazingly tense scenes with Landa (and the German officer in the bar) kept the movie from being a total waste of time, but Pitt was a disappointment, and the Jewish protagonist girl was totally forgettable. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inglourious-basterds-spoilers/507254/265 "2009-12-01T20:24:55Z")
[QUOTE=pepperlandgirl] …but he was a _ **Nazi** _ [/QUOTE] This is what I’m talking about. I find your attempt to dissect Zoller’s motivations absurd, as there’s really nothing there that stays consistent and makes sense, just schizophrenic caricatures that appear for two scenes and pack up and go home. He’s a _Nazi_, of course his heart was black and shriveled the entire time, even him looking uncomfortable at the movie and shaking his head was really a superficial ploy to fool the _audience._ Because the character totally knew we were watching. Yeah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inglourious-basterds-spoilers/507254.md?page=13)