# Inherent problems with paranormal studies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370 "2009-03-13T22:04:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/41 "2009-03-16T14:52:16Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Out of interest, is the reverse true? If someone focuses on the spiritual too much, the less they can sense of the physical? IMHO Yes, I believe autistic children are an example. they are intelligent, self aware, unquestionably thinking, but can’t distinguish what is this physical place, and the other spiritual world they are living in. Another example are people who take drugs such as LSD, during the trip they sense much less of the physical. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/42 "2009-03-16T14:56:26Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > You seem to be confused as to the scope and abilities of science. It’s a very general approach, basically just a way of looking for things systematically – actually, I’d go as far as saying that for something to be accessible to science, it only needs to exist and influence some part of observable reality. It’s not like science employs some kind of special detector, and thus can only talk about things registered by this detector – or maybe you could say that the whole universe is its detector: anything within it, and anything affecting it, automatically is in science’s domain. To say that ‘science does not apply’ to something is essentially to say that that something isn’t there, either in the sense of not existing or in the sense of not interacting with anything that in turn interacts with us. In both cases, it’s of no consequence to anybody at all. The problem is you are looking towards the physical to prove the spiritual, it does not work like that no matter what device you use, nor what part of the physical body to sense it. Our 5 sense are designed to sense the physical, not the spiritual. As such any science is doomed to fail. > [@](#): > > And, of course, you alone know who that ‘one God’ is. What’s that, a true godsman fallacy? No, there is one true God, the maker of heaven and earth, period end of debate. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/43 "2009-03-16T14:59:12Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > Then what’s the point? If no one can understand it, and it doesn’t affect the ‘material’ world (that can be measured) except by you, and only you know if it’s you having some random feeling or thought instead of a spirit/demon visitation…what’s the point? The point is that it’s not only me, but available to anyone seeking the Lord. He will free you from group think - use your head, learn how to operate your mind. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/44 "2009-03-16T15:04:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And Allah is just “God” in another language, anyway. I just want to put this one to bed, no he is not. God looks at the heart. If by Allah you mean the demon that dictated the Koran, that is the demon you are praying to, if by Allah you mean the God, the maker of heaven and earth, Lord of all, who’s Son is Jesus who died and rose again then that is the God you are praying to. The name doesn’t matter, you could call God ‘Joe’ and if by Joe you mean the Lord God, that is who you are praying to. You know that the word Allah as used in the US refers to the god that dictated the Koran, and not the God who wrote the Bible through His servants. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/45 "2009-03-16T15:15:01Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > .You have not addressed the question I asked you. I asked you, ‘…how you are able to distinguish between the things you can see, detect or know about using your spiritual awareness and things that are delusions, dreams and fantasies entirely divorced from reality and real life’. I cited examples of things that some ‘spiritually aware’ people have done (fly planes into buildings, murder young women) only to underline the fact that this an important point. However, you have not addressed this point or answered the question I put to you. It is the same as we learn about the physical world, trial and error, we get some spiritual insight, maybe have an idea of what it means, perhaps not. Then something happens where that insight relates to the event. Next spiritual insight you use what you learned on the first one to try to interperate the second, and so on. After a while you can sense certain meanings, that make sense to you and seem to work by faith. Then once in a while something will come in the upset the pattern you see. You develop theories to incorporate them, growing spiritually. Unlike science which results come from paying attention and studying, spiritual insight happens when you don’t pay attention, don’t study and let things happen. This is the same process as trying to understand the Bible, through scientific study of it you find apparent contradictions, through spiritual discernment I have learned that there are no contradictions at all, and it is really the Word of God. Again it is the magic eye picture, looking at it flat (as science would), nothing is seen, but spiritually pictures form, and new dimensions open, and prove themselves true, and greater understanding on how something in our physical world can appear to be a contradiction but can co-exist in multidimensional space of physical+spiritual world that we all live in. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/46 "2009-03-16T15:15:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The problem is you are looking towards the physical to prove the spiritual, it does not work like that no matter what device you use, nor what part of the physical body to sense it. Our 5 sense are designed to sense the physical, not the spiritual. As such any science is doomed to fail. Does the spiritual have any influence on the physical? If not, what does it matter? If yes, why can’t I observe it? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/47 "2009-03-16T15:16:14Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > No, there is one true God, the maker of heaven and earth, period end of debate. No there isn’t. Exclamation point, which outranks a period, NOW end of debate. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/48 "2009-03-16T15:16:24Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > No, there is one true God, the maker of heaven and earth, period end of debate. Actually, you _believe_ there is one god. See that word ‘believe’ is important, because otherwise it looks like you’re asserting that the existence of god is a fact, and not a belief. Then you would be responsible for providing evidence to support your claim, and you certainly wouldn’t want that. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/49 "2009-03-16T15:17:33Z")
**Kanicbird** is of course entitled to post anything he or she wants, but let us not forget that, _according to his or her own reasoning_, he or she is a satanic demon intent on disseminating made up rubbish. I showed this back in post #32, and **Kanicbird** has offered no rebuttal. I humbly submit that his or her posts since that time have, if anything, corroborated my assertion (or at least the ‘made up rubbish’ part). > [@](#): > > He will free you from group think When an assertion is this saturated in irony, it’s difficult to see any way to connect it with reality, truth or reason. **Kanicbird** : religion _is_ a form of group think, not an escape from it. Apparently Kanicbird has never seen [Life Of Brian](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T1LIrzsgqA). “Yes, we are all individuals”. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/50 "2009-03-16T15:22:53Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I don’t beleive in dowsing but the way Randi set up the test were not quite was the dowser says he can do. I have no idea why you say this. Please read the link again. The dowser succeeded 20 times in a row in finding the target when he knew where it was. The room was set up to his satisfaction. When the target was concealed, he couldn’t find it any better than chance. That was the only thing that changed. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/51 "2009-03-16T15:25:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The problem is you are looking towards the physical to prove the spiritual, it does not work like that no matter what device you use, nor what part of the physical body to sense it. Our 5 sense are designed to sense the physical, not the spiritual. As such any science is doomed to fail. How come **you** can detect the spiritual then? How do you know it exists? > [@kanicbird](#): > > No, there is one true God, the maker of heaven and earth, period end of debate. Judaism? Chrisitianity? It’s amazing (and sad) that you announce there is no debate. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/52 "2009-03-16T16:04:01Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > When an assertion is this saturated in irony, it’s difficult to see any way to connect it with reality, truth or reason. **Kanicbird** : religion _is_ a form of group think, not an escape from it. Religion is as big of group think as science, as global warming mythology, etc. again I say use your mind, learn how to use your brain. [QUOTE=glee] How come you can detect the spiritual then? How do you know it exists? [/QUOTE] We have the ability to detect the spiritual because along with our physical mind/body and our physical sense we have a spiritual counterpart soul/spirit. Just as we learned to use our physical bodies, we also can (re)learn to use our spiritual senses. > [@](#): > > Judaism? > Chrisitianity? The maker of Heaven and earth, the Lord almighty. [QUOTE=Half Man Half Wit] Does the spiritual have any influence on the physical? If not, what does it matter? [/quote] Yes, again look at the magic eye poster, by a item in the poster ‘moving’ the dots (our physical world) changes, likewise moving the physical dots moves objects spiritually. > [@](#): > > If yes, why can’t I observe it? We all have this ability to some extent, as we are formed spiritually first and even in the womb we are physically sensory deprived and very much in the spiritual realm. Recognizing it is a gift from God, usually called spiritual discernment, by accepting Jesus as your Lord and receiving the Holy Spirit is one such way, if that is a gift that He wants you to have, and if you really are interested in it, that is probably the gift you will get. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/53 "2009-03-16T16:20:54Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Religion is as big of group think as science, as global warming mythology, etc. Empty assertion, unsupported by good evidence or good reasoning. > [@](#): > > we have a spiritual counterpart soul/spirit. Empty assertion, unsupported by good evidence or good reasoning. > [@](#): > > The maker of Heaven and earth, the Lord almighty. Empty assertion, unsupported by good evidence or good reasoning. > [@](#): > > Yes, again look at the magic eye poster, by a item in the poster ‘moving’ the dots (our physical world) changes, likewise moving the physical dots moves objects spiritually. Incomprehensible gibberish. > [@](#): > > We all have this ability to some extent, as we are formed spiritually first and even in the womb we are physically sensory deprived and very much in the spiritual realm. Empty assertion, unsupported by good evidence or good reasoning. Thank you for your contribution. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/54 "2009-03-16T16:49:58Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Religion is as big of group think as science, as global warming mythology, etc. again I say use your mind, l **earn how to use your brain**. (my emphasis) Thank you. I was looking for a good SDMB chuckle today. You told me that my daughter’s spina bifida was as a result of a prenatal deal she made with some nefarious invisible demon as oppposed to a lack of folic acid … and now you’re telling other people to “use their brains.” Your critical thinking skills are sorely lacking. I’m suspecting there might have been some low folic acid levels somewhere in your past as well. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/55 "2009-03-16T16:59:55Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, again look at the magic eye poster, by a item in the poster ‘moving’ the dots (our physical world) changes, likewise moving the physical dots moves objects spiritually. …a phenomenon, obviously, totally amenable to observation and science. Indeed, the creation of such magic eye posters requires a good scientific understanding of human perception. Again, if the spiritual influences the physical world, it is observable and amenable to scientific study; if it doesn’t, it is completely meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/56 "2009-03-16T17:06:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > IMHO Yes, I believe autistic children are an example. they are intelligent, self aware, unquestionably thinking, but can’t distinguish what is this physical place, and the other spiritual world they are living in. > > Another example are people who take drugs such as LSD, during the trip they sense much less of the physical. Then I think we may have a problem. Namely, how we can know this. A person who has much knowledge and focus on the physical world is, according to this idea, blinded at least partially to the spiritual. Thus, we could not accept their word that this idea is accurate; they don’t know and can’t see enough of the spiritual to know for sure. Likewise, a person who has much knowledge and focus on the spiritual world is similarily blinded at least partially to the physical; we can’t take their word on this idea, because they don’t know enough about the physical to know for sure. A person “in the middle” - with equal focus on the physical and spiritual - has gaps in both areas. Since, by this idea, no person can understand both the spiritual _and_ the physical, no person is truly able to verify the idea. It requires total knowledge of areas of which all people are blind in at least one to truly know. It shouldn’t be rejected as an idea, but it most certainly shouldn’t be accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/57 "2009-03-16T17:08:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, again look at the magic eye poster, by a item in the poster ‘moving’ the dots (our physical world) changes, likewise moving the physical dots moves objects spiritually. Due to an eye defect, I can’t see magic eye pictures. Am I incorrect, and really my lack of ability in that area is affected by my lack of spirituality? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/58 "2009-03-16T17:21:16Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > (my emphasis) > > Thank you. I was looking for a good SDMB chuckle today. Glad I could give you a chuckle. > [@](#): > > You told me that my daughter’s spina bifida was as a result of a prenatal deal she made with some nefarious invisible demon as oppposed to a lack of folic acid … and now you’re telling other people to “use their brains.” This is a perfect example of the magic eye poster, the spina bifida is part of a spiritual issue, the dots science sees is a lack of folic acid (which is the surface dots that science can study), but it is the underlying spiritual issue (the 3d hidden image) that lead to that lack of folic acid is the real cause. What are the event that lead to this lack? Was she unable to get this from food, or was she fed the wrong foods? and what caused that? Yes it can go back to the womb of your child or even her parents. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/59 "2009-03-16T17:25:18Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Due to an eye defect, I can’t see magic eye pictures. Am I incorrect, and really my lack of ability in that area is affected by my lack of spirituality? That vision issue is probably a reflection of your spiritual condition, where seeing the spiritual is naturally harder for you. If you have the ability to see 3d at all, even with corrective lenses I’d suggest trying to see it, as it is a great analogy of what seeing the spiritual really opens up. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/60 "2009-03-16T17:29:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is a perfect example of the magic eye poster, the spina bifida is part of a spiritual issue, the dots science sees is a lack of folic acid (which is the surface dots that science can study), but it is the underlying spiritual issue (the 3d hidden image) that lead to that lack of folic acid is the real cause. What are the event that lead to this lack? Was she unable to get this from food, or was she fed the wrong foods? and what caused that? Yes it can go back to the womb of your child or even her parents. Listen. You have zero knowledge on anything you’ve ever opened your mouth about here. And I’ve pretty much let it slide because I think you are ignorant – not dumb, not stupid, just ignorant of things. Your continual falling back on these supernatural phenomenon (which is obvious that you are making up as you go) is starting to become more of an irritant than anything else. Were I a more knee-jerk poster, I’d have been banned a long time ago after having to read from you how my daughter made a deal with someone from your retarded, non-existant spirit world that has forced her to have to live her life with more challenges than a person should have to … but, like I say, I forgive you for you know not what you do. That being said, you should do the board a favor and stop claiming as fact that which has sprung from your head, and exists absolutely no where else. It’s insulting and bordering on offensive for some of us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370.md?page=4)