# Inherent problems with paranormal studies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370 "2009-03-13T22:04:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/61 "2009-03-16T17:36:09Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Then I think we may have a problem. Namely, how we can know this. > > A person who has much knowledge and focus on the physical world is, according to this idea, blinded at least partially to the spiritual. Thus, we could not accept their word that this idea is accurate; they don’t know and can’t see enough of the spiritual to know for sure. Likewise, a person who has much knowledge and focus on the spiritual world is similarily blinded at least partially to the physical; we can’t take their word on this idea, because they don’t know enough about the physical to know for sure. A person “in the middle” - with equal focus on the physical and spiritual - has gaps in both areas. > > Since, by this idea, no person can understand both the spiritual _and_ the physical, no person is truly able to verify the idea. It requires total knowledge of areas of which all people are blind in at least one to truly know. It shouldn’t be rejected as an idea, but it most certainly shouldn’t be accepted. That is up to the individual\*. There is objective reality, and subjective reality. Most people live in realities designed by others (objective), though our minds are designed to do that for ourselves. \*By saying it’s up to the individual I’m saying that the person should decide for themselves once they experienced both, which required accepting both as real. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/62 "2009-03-16T17:49:42Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Were I a more knee-jerk poster, I’d have been banned a long time ago after having to read from you how my daughter made a deal with someone from your retarded, non-existant spirit world that has forced her to have to live her life with more challenges than a person should have to … but, like I say, I forgive you for you know not what you do. > > That being said, you should do the board a favor and stop claiming as fact that which has sprung from your head, and exists absolutely no where else. It’s insulting and bordering on offensive for some of us. Jack Batty, if what I say offends you in any way the reason is not in myself, but inside you. There is some issue in your past that is not healed and people can use that to get to you at any time by bringing it up, or even hinting at it. As long as you leave that underlying issue unhealed you are allowing others to bother you. Whatever can get to anyone is a internal issue, not external. I have meant you no harm, nor do I have any intent to harm you. If the truth hurts then you should be asking why and how can you correct that instead of living inside a lie that distracts you from your pain. God bless you. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/63 "2009-03-16T17:53:13Z")
I refer you to my previous post. Do us all a favor. And by the way … do me a personal favor and don’t assume anything about my past like you have fucking clue, alright kemosabe? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/64 "2009-03-16T18:16:22Z")
And kanicbird successfully steers yet another thread off a cliff, using nothing more than empty assertions and weapons grade ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/65 "2009-03-16T18:26:29Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > weapons grade ignorance. A wonderful phrase, new to me, and superbly appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/66 "2009-03-16T18:47:02Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > That vision issue is probably a reflection of your spiritual condition, where seeing the spiritual is naturally harder for you. > > If you have the ability to see 3d at all, even with corrective lenses I’d suggest trying to see it, as it is a great analogy of what seeing the spiritual really opens up. My depth perception and extent to which my eyes work together is not so affected that I have no 3D sight at all, but enough so that my depth perception is pretty bad and I simply can’t see magic eye pictures. They’re too different, alas. > [@](#): > > That is up to the individual\*. There is objective reality, and subjective reality. Most people live in realities designed by others (objective), though our minds are designed to do that for ourselves. > > \*By saying it’s up to the individual I’m saying that the person should decide for themselves once they experienced both, which required accepting both as real. That makes sense, but I don’t see how a person can experience both. How do we know at what level of understanding we know all applicable to know? At what point during our study of the physical or spiritual do we know “Right, that’s it, I know enough of this subject to be able to make this pronouncement”? Do I need the equivalent knowledge of the physical to a high school level, degree level, perhaps a doctorate? How do I know when i’m done, since, by definition, we can never know what we do not know we know. On top of that, you have the problem that whatever you pick first will forever colour your perceptions, if what you say is true. You can’t \*forget \*what you know. If you have true understanding of the spiritual, you can’t abandon it to go understand the physical, and vice-versa. May I ask which you yourself started off with, and how you avoided whichever that was colouring your perceptions of the other? How did you “remove your blinkers” as it were, and if this is possible, why isn’t it possible to do just generally. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/67 "2009-03-16T19:44:11Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I have no idea why you say this. > Please read the link again. > > The dowser succeeded 20 times in a row in finding the target when he knew where it was. > The room was set up to his satisfaction. > When the target was concealed, he couldn’t find it any better than chance. That was the only thing that changed. Again trying to study it and it won’t work, the more you trust without studying the more you will notice results. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/68 "2009-03-16T19:56:35Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > That makes sense, but I don’t see how a person can experience both. How do we know at what level of understanding we know all applicable to know? At what point during our study of the physical or spiritual do we know “Right, that’s it, I know enough of this subject to be able to make this pronouncement”? Do I need the equivalent knowledge of the physical to a high school level, degree level, perhaps a doctorate? How do I know when i’m done, since, by definition, we can never know what we do not know we know. When do you stop learning about the physical world? It’s a process that really doesn’t end. But that’s not to say you don’t progress. It is just like your physical life, you start as a baby and progress to adulthood, which would be spiritual maturity, which you will know when you get there. It is the point where you are self sufficient to think on your own, and can see and follow your own path. You are no longer tossed around like a reed in the wind. > [@](#): > > On top of that, you have the problem that whatever you pick first will forever colour your perceptions, if what you say is true. You can’t \*forget \*what you know. If you have true understanding of the spiritual, you can’t abandon it to go understand the physical, and vice-versa. This is a hard thing to do, and we usually try to mold the spiritual into the physical world we know, this however is the opposite as the spiritual contains the physical, not the other way around, or to put another way our physical world is like 2 dimensions in a 3 dimension spiritual world. But OTOH we really experience spiritual first (in the womb), then physical, so there is a part of us that remembers and helps guide us. > [@](#): > > May I ask which you yourself started off with, and how you avoided whichever that was colouring your perceptions of the other? How did you “remove your blinkers” as it were, and if this is possible, why isn’t it possible to do just generally. Again we all start spiritual, then physical at birth (with the exception of IMHO some like autistic children). Like many people I tried to fit the spiritual into the physical, and though it didn’t work, I did notice patterns, those patterns continuously steered me from the physical and had me construct a spiritual reality, which under the light of scripture and teaching from the Holy Spirit the spiritual world was revealed. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/69 "2009-03-16T21:07:58Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Jack Batty, if what I say offends you in any way the reason is not in myself, but inside you. No, it’s inside the callous things you say. Your rhetorical strategy consists of claiming ineffable spiritual knowledge, most of which appears to be made up on the spot because it’s nearly incomprehensible, and then blaming people for things that any thinking person would understand are not their fault, such as sickness or medical problems in their children. It’s really shocking behavior and these are terrible things to say. After making those comments you usually drive home the point that whatever happens is always the fault of the victim “spiritually,” and then you invent medical knowledge and (this is the topper) encourage people to use their brains. The problem is entirely with your remarks. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/70 "2009-03-16T22:43:04Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The problem is you are looking towards the physical to prove the spiritual, it does not work like that no matter what device you use, nor what part of the physical body to sense it. Our 5 sense are designed to sense the physical, not the spiritual. As such any science is doomed to fail. Actually, it doesn’t matter _how_ you can observe things. If you can observe them, if _you, **kanicbird** _ can observe or otherwise be aware of spiritual events, then they can be studied scientifically. In fact, if you made notes of your spiritual experiences, those notes could then be studied by people who actually know what science is to draw conclusions about what you are actually experiencing. Of course, whenever that happens, the evidence fails to hold up to scrutiny or to corroborate anything else more directly observable, in objective reality. Funny, that. > [@kanicbird](#): > > No, there is one true God, the maker of heaven and earth, period end of debate. Let’s presume for a moment that you are indeed speaking to an extraphysical entity, rather than an imaginary friend. And that there do exist, as you state, other deceiving gods. How could you possibly know you aren’t dealing with one of them, who is lying to you and pretending to be a true God, the maker of heaven and earth? Answer: you can’t. Period. At which point we ask ourselves, if you are able to fool yourself into certainty that your God isn’t some deceiver god when such certainty is unmerited, why shouldn’t we think that you are capable of mistaking an imaginary friend for a God? Answer: There is no reason to think you are not mistaking an imaginary friend for a one true God. Period, end of debate. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/71 "2009-03-16T23:05:13Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Again trying to study it and it won’t work, the more you trust without studying the more you will notice results. Because then you’ll be making mistakes. Your advice amounts to “Be as stupid and ignorant as you can, and you will discover the Truth !” Of course, your worldview is build on stupid, ignorant ideas, so that’s to be expected. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/72 "2009-03-17T01:29:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Jack Batty, if what I say offends you in any way the reason is not in myself, but inside you. There is some issue in your past that is not healed and people can use that to get to you at any time by bringing it up, or even hinting at it. As long as you leave that underlying issue unhealed you are allowing others to bother you. > > Whatever can get to anyone is a internal issue, not external. I have meant you no harm, nor do I have any intent to harm you. > > If the truth hurts then you should be asking why and how can you correct that instead of living inside a lie that distracts you from your pain. > > God bless you. This is a classic case of “[truthiness](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness).” It doesn’t matter what medical science says about the cause of birth defects-it’s what you, **Kanicbird** , “feel in your gut”, or, “heart”, in this case. It’s what you “know”, because God would say so. Evidence doesn’t matter. Facts don’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/73 "2009-03-17T01:47:58Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And that there do exist, as you state, other deceiving gods. How could you possibly know you aren’t dealing with one of them, who is lying to you and pretending to be a true God, the maker of heaven and earth? You might be suspicious if your God looks like a [Star God](http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=99110110020&rootCatGameStyle=), for one. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/74 "2009-03-17T13:56:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Let’s presume for a moment that you are indeed speaking to an extraphysical entity, rather than an imaginary friend. And that there do exist, as you state, other deceiving gods. How could you possibly know you aren’t dealing with one of them, who is lying to you and pretending to be a true God, the maker of heaven and earth? Just as by study you know the facts, this works the exact same way, by faith you know the truth. What we can prove in the physical and know, the same thing happens spiritually, but the process is faith, which leads to knowing. Seek God with all your heart and He will reveal all truths to you. While facts are what you can prove physically, truths are eternal wisdom of God and are far above facts. To use another example: Using facts: Science can determine the number of stars it can find, science can estimate the number of stars in the universe - that estimation is not capable of determining the number however. Using the Wisdom of God: God created every star and knows them by name. God will reveal His truth to you if you need to know it in His work for you For if God revealed to me that there are exactly 678,485,699,329 stars He created in the universe, you can see how people grounded in only the physical can’t accept that, though the truth was revealed to them, their facts are a stumbling block to the truth. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/75 "2009-03-17T14:09:52Z")
Hey, **Kanicbird** , you just said truths are above facts. Question for you: is that a fact? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/76 "2009-03-17T16:03:33Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > Hey, **Kanicbird** , you just said truths are above facts. > > Question for you: is that a fact? Find out for yourself, Jesus is the way, may He bless your journey in Him. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/77 "2009-03-17T16:08:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Again trying to study it and it won’t work, the more you trust without studying the more you will notice results. **Kanicbird** , if you want eternal happiness, then wire $50,000 into my bank account. Don’t study this instruction; just trust it. Otherwise it won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/78 "2009-03-17T16:14:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > For if God revealed to me that there are exactly 678,485,699,329 stars He created in the universe, you can see how people grounded in only the physical can’t accept that, though the truth was revealed to them, their facts are a stumbling block to the truth. By some estimates there are more stars than that in our galaxy alone. And let’s not forget all the other 10[sup]24[/sup] galaxies in the observable universe. So where did all the other stars come from if they weren’t created by your God? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/79 "2009-03-17T16:15:57Z")
I’m going to guess outsourcing. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/80 "2009-03-17T16:30:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Just as by study you know the facts, this works the exact same way, by faith you know the truth. What we can prove in the physical and know, the same thing happens spiritually, but the process is faith, which leads to knowing. Face the truth, man - faith is not an investigative process, it’s a _ceasing_ of investigation. Faith denies doubt, and in doing so prevents you from noticing the lack of reasons or even the nonsense in your beliefs. I could have absolute faith in the existence of santa claus. Doing so would tell me that santa claus is real - I’d _know_ it. But, despite your assertions that faith proves things, actually would _not_ prove that santa claus exists. By the exact same token, _your_ faith does not prove that _your_ God exists. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Seek God with all your heart and He will reveal all truths to you. While facts are what you can prove physically, truths are eternal wisdom of God and are far above facts. Unless, of course, something _else_ reveals all truths to you instead. Or a bunch of lies that seem close enough to truths if you don’t look closely. And you’d never know…faith, of course, just has you unconditionally trust in whatever you happen to already believe, so it can’t possibly warn you against fraud, or simply being completely wrong. > [@kanicbird](#): > > To use another example: > > Using facts: > Science can determine the number of stars it can find, science can estimate the number of stars in the universe - that estimation is not capable of determining the number however. > > Using the Wisdom of God: > God created every star and knows them by name. God will reveal His truth to you if you need to know it in His work for you > > For if God revealed to me that there are exactly 678,485,699,329 stars He created in the universe, you can see how people grounded in only the physical can’t accept that, though the truth was revealed to them, their facts are a stumbling block to the truth. Dude, there are only two\* stars. You have to believe that - it was revealed to you! By me! And for all _you_ know, perhaps I heard it directly from god. So you aren’t allowed to doubt me. What, you don’t like that? That’s _exactly_ what you’re saying to us. \*Yes, two! You know it’s true. I said so. Don’t let pesky facts like a sky full of visible stars dissuade you from the Truth! Such things are only a stumbling block! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370.md?page=5)