# Inherent problems with paranormal studies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370 "2009-03-13T22:04:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/81 "2009-03-17T16:48:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Dude, there are only two\* stars. Tom Cruise and Barbra Streisand - eh? Am I right? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/82 "2009-03-17T17:12:35Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Tom Cruise and Barbra Streisand - eh? Am I right? Yes! How did you know? Have you been talking to god too? All the cool kids are doing it. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/83 "2009-03-17T17:48:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Find out for yourself, I _am_ finding out: I’m asking you a question about your own assertions and your own words. You have stated ‘truths are above facts’. I am asking you whether this is a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/84 "2009-03-17T18:32:24Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > By some estimates there are more stars than that in our galaxy alone. And let’s not forget all the other 10[sup]24[/sup] galaxies in the observable universe. So where did all the other stars come from if they weren’t created by your God? To be fair, he did say IF, so I THINK he’s speaking hypothetically. Maybe. I hope so. And I’ll bring back an example I used before: kittens are born with their eyes closed, and do not open them until about [seven to ten days](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kittens#Birth_and_development) after birth. Now, I can believe that they are born with their eyes open, and say that God revealed that to me. But, not only does that not make it a _fact_, it also doesn’t make it _true_. For me to say otherwise would be false, and thus it could NOT be the truth. And FWIW, I’m not an atheist, or even an agnostic, **Kanicbird**. So it’s not like you have a monopoly on God. (Although my beliefs are more vague) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/85 "2009-03-17T19:30:09Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And FWIW, I’m not an atheist, or even an agnostic, **Kanicbird**. So it’s not like you have a monopoly on God. (Although my beliefs are more vague) Nowhere did I say I have a monopoly on God, as God gives His Spirit to all who accept Him and ask. But most here are putting up what man calls facts against the wisdom of God. The death of Jesus shows how God’s ways are not ours, and in my experience the direct opposite. The Jews were expecting a mighty warrior to rescue them, what God had in mind was to send His Son to die for them. Man tells us that our resources on earth are limited and running out, God is the real provider and wants to provide for His children, we will never run out. Man thinks we need to recycle, God does not want us to live among our trash, He wants to provide, recycling is not trusting in God’s ability to provide. We all can come to Jesus, receive the Holy Spirit and God will reveal all truths. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/86 "2009-03-17T19:35:58Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > N Man tells us that our resources on earth are limited and running out, God is the real provider and wants to provide for His children, we will never run out. Man thinks we need to recycle, God does not want us to live among our trash, He wants to provide, recycling is not trusting in God’s ability to provide. Well you have truly surprised me here. A Christian defense of not recycling. I would never have thought such a thing existed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/87 "2009-03-17T19:39:09Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well you have truly surprised me here. A Christian defense of not recycling. I would never have thought such a thing existed. “God wants us to use up the world” isn’t that rare on the political right. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/88 "2009-03-17T19:42:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “God wants us to use up the world” isn’t that rare on the political right. I guess I’m not as smart as a thought I was. Again. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/89 "2009-03-17T20:40:51Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well you have truly surprised me here. A Christian defense of not recycling. I would never have thought such a thing existed. I dunno about you, but I plan to eat the fruit and throw away the vine. Yay, brother. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/90 "2009-03-17T22:47:54Z")
I dunno, **Der Trihs** , I don’t see **Kanicbird** on the right OR left. Quite frankly, **Kanicbird** , I see recycling more as, this is the world God gave us-shouldn’t we take care of it, rather than trash it? Clean up after ourselves, rather than be a bunch of slobs? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/91 "2009-03-18T00:13:53Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I dunno, **Der Trihs** , I don’t see **Kanicbird** on the right OR left. I wasn’t so much commenting on him, as pointing out that it’s not a unique attitude. ---
**Author:** ![RogueAOV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@RogueAOV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueAOV)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/92 "2009-03-18T09:01:26Z")
I feel like i should apoligise for mentioning religion, although i do remember saying that i did not want to turn this into a religious debate. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/93 "2009-03-18T10:14:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Again trying to study it and it won’t work, the more you trust without studying the more you will notice results. This is really silly. If you don’t study it, how do you know if it works? If you don’t keep track of results, how do you know if you’ve succeeded? Looking back over your contribution to this thread, I am really depressed by your God. He doesn’t want you to think, He wants you to blame children for their misfortunes, He doesn’t want you to care about the World and He gives ‘spiritual gifts’ to those who worship him - except nobody can see what they are. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/94 "2009-03-18T11:56:56Z")
**Kanicbird** , I am still waiting for you to answer the simple question I asked you. You have stated ‘truths are above facts’. I am asking you whether this is a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/95 "2009-03-18T22:53:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I wasn’t so much commenting on him, as pointing out that it’s not a unique attitude. Oh well, for once, I agree with you. 😉 (Funny, it was Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, who was an early proponant of the environmental movement!) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/96 "2009-03-18T23:11:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The point is that it’s not only me, but available to anyone seeking the Lord. \*\*He will free you from group think \*\*- use your head, learn how to operate your mind. Thank you, kanicbird; that is the funniest thing I’ve ever read on the Dope. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Professor\_Murder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/90ced4/32.png) [@Professor\_Murder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Professor_Murder)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/97 "2009-03-19T13:39:31Z")
I am fairly new to these boards, but from what I have seen, Kanicbird is a troll, desperate for attention. They can only achieve satisfaction through posting on messageboards where they don’t have to back up anything they write. Why waste any time responding to him/her at all? ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/98 "2009-03-19T18:04:32Z")
> [@Professor\_Murder](#): > > I am fairly new to these boards, but from what I have seen, Kanicbird is a troll I’m sure a Moderator will address this soon enough, but I believe we have rules about referring to other posters using that word. What _is_ clear, because it follows from **Kanicbird’s** _own reasoning_, is that he is ‘a satanic demon intent on disseminating made up rubbish’. See [my post in a separate thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10942298&postcount=103) In fact you’ll probably find [the whole thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510191) very illuminating. While I would never use the forbidden word, I do believe that any assessment of **Kanicbird’s** output leads fairly and accurately to the conclusion that he may be considered a vile, heartless, hate-filled pus dollop from Logical Bypass Land. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/99 "2009-03-19T18:05:08Z")
I think Edgar Cayce put it best when he said, “To the skeptic, no evidence is sufficient. To the believer, none is required.” Somewhere in between is where I fall, being a natural skeptic but also having personally experienced some of the so-called “supernatural” events and abilities under debate and finding myself unable to scientifically, rationally explain them away as non-existent. (or as some otherwise explainable phenomenon) I object to the term “supernatural” or “paranormal” as usually used and interpreted; anything which occurs is “natural”/“normal” (though perhaps not common, easily measured or verified, or within the bounds of what is CURRENTLY known and accepted regarding “reality”) and should not be automatically considered “wooo-wooo”. Or are we so conceited as to assume we know all there is to know at this late date? That is not science. It is hubris. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370/100 "2009-03-19T18:11:32Z")
> [@Professor\_Murder](#): > > I am fairly new to these boards, but from what I have seen, Kanicbird is a troll, desperate for attention. They can only achieve satisfaction through posting on messageboards where they don’t have to back up anything they write. Why waste any time responding to him/her at all? For the audience, mostly; for curiousity, somewhat. I am occasionally genuinely curious as to the details of how various unlikely proposed systems are imagined to work (though sometimes the curiosity is morbid), and it’s interesting to see whether they even work as an abstract or fictional system, or alternatively whether they’re internally inconsistent (as I believe **kanicbird** ’s system to be, because it explicitly entertains the existence of entities that can deceptively make themselves indistinguishable from God, yet includes an absolute trust that when a person believes they are talking to god they are not decieved by any of these entities). And of course, in case anybody is watching it’s undesireable to let incorrect statements pass unopposed, since on a message board like this silence often is read as concession or agreement. (And I think we’re not supposed to call people trolls in this forum, regardless of what we may think. We have the pit for that.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inherent-problems-with-paranormal-studies/489370.md?page=6)