# Inheritance of British noble titles **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 21, 2019, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947 "2019-02-21T07:24:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/1 "2019-02-21T07:24:00Z")
So I’m finally getting around to watching “Downton Abbey”. One of the major story arcs concerns an English nobleman who has no close male relatives to inherit his title, raising the possibility that his estate will go to some distant commoner relative. My question is, why couldn’t he just adopt a son? Is there (or was there in 1914) a law saying that adopted children aren’t eligible to inherit titles? Or was adoption simply not something British upper-crusties did at that time? Or did the scriptwriters just overlook this gaping hole in their plotting? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/2 "2019-02-21T07:37:45Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Is there (or was there in 1914) a law saying that adopted children aren’t eligible to inherit titles? Yes. It’s still the case now. It was only in 2004 that adopted children of peers were even recognized as being entitled to the same _courtesy_ titles as their legitimately born brothers and sisters. (Until then, if a duke with the surname of Smith had three daughters, one of whom was adopted, the two biological daughters were Lady X Smith while the adopted daughter was plain old Miss X Smith.) ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/3 "2019-02-21T07:43:31Z")
Well, I guess you would know! 😃 Thanks for the info. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/4 "2019-02-21T07:57:30Z")
The author of Downton also used as a plot device an entail, i.e., where an ancestor had specified in his will that the family wealth (irrespective of whatever statute law governed the title) could only be inherited in full and by a legitimate male heir. You may recall that an entail was a driving force behind the plot of Pride and Prejudice - all the Bennet girls had to marry wealth or rely on the generosity of the heir on their father’s death. I also have a will from a possible ancestor of mine in the 18th century, which is almost paranoid in specifying how none of his money is to be inherited by an illegitimate child, even down to four or five subsequent generations - page after page of it. But then, he was a slave-owning planter in Jamaica, and there is reason to believe he had at least one illegitimate child of his own, whom he supported and educated up to the age of 21, after which he accepted no obligation. The bloodline mattered in those days. Entails weren’t finally abolished until the 1920s. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/5 "2019-02-21T09:15:08Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > It was only in 2004 that adopted children… In Scottish law the distinction between natural and adopted heirs was still a thing when I made my will a few years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/6 "2019-02-21T09:41:29Z")
Debrett’s: > [@](#): > > The creation of peerages is a royal prerogative. In modern times all peerages have been created by letters patent. The patent, which is a parchment bearing the Great Seal but no signature, describes how the title may descend after the death of the person who has been ennobled – this is called the remainder. > > Usually there is a limitation on the remainder, ie the title is limited to the male heirs of the body, legally begotten (ie legitimate), but some patents contain a special remainder, whereby other members of the family (for example, daughters, brothers or sisters or their children) may inherit the title. War leaders, such as Nelson, Kitchener, Allenby, Mountbatten and Portal, were all created peers with a special remainder, as none had male issue to inherit, and this gave these peerages a better chance of survival. > > Before the creation of peerages by patent became customary, the early English baronies were created by a writ of summons to Counsel or Parliament. Although a baron’s successor did not necessarily receive a similar summons, successors of the more important barons generally did, by which process a hereditary barony gradually emerged. > > The remainders of baronies by writ, having no patent, are not limited to ‘heirs male’, but to heirs-general. So, for instance, if such a baron died without leaving a male heir, but leaving a sole daughter, this daughter would be permitted to inherit the barony. > > Should there be more than one daughter, the title will fall into abeyance between the co-heirs. The co-heirs should come to an honourable agreement (ie without bribery or corruption) as to which of them is to claim the title, and then the claimant may petition The Crown to have the abeyance terminated. A claimant must represent at least a third share of the abeyant title, and the title must not have been in abeyance for more than a hundred years. The Sovereign may terminate an abeyance by exercise of the royal prerogative. > > If, in the fullness of time, the co-heirs to an abeyant peerage diminish to a single heir, the claimant may assume the title without petition to The Crown. Recent examples of peerages being called out of abeyance include Strange 1986, Grey of Codnor 1989, Berners 1995, Arlington 1999 and Howard de Walden 2004. > > Historically, there was also a doctrine of baronies by tenure. These were feudal titles which were held by possession of land and castle (most famously Fitzalan of Arundel Castle, who successfully petitioned to be considered Earl of Arundel in 1433). Most claims to baronies by tenure, however, were challenged in the House of Lords and, in 1861, the Committee for Privileges of the House of Lords decided that, irrespective of whatever might have been the position in the past, baronies by tenure no longer existed. > > In the Peerage of Scotland the rules of inheritance are more varied, as dictated by the limitation. The destination may be to ‘heirs male whatsoever’ (somebody who may not be in a direct line of descent from the first peer), or heirs male ‘of the body’ (similar to most English remainders), or ‘heirs male of tailzie’ (entailed estates), or ‘heirs whatsoever’ (ie whether male or female). A remainder worded ‘heirs whatsoever’ prevents a peerage from falling into abeyance between co-heirs as it enables an elder daughter to inherit even if she has a sister. > > In the Peerage of Ireland succession descends according to the limitation. Although the original limitations of the older peerages are not always known, it is now held that there are only two which could pass in the female line (the viscountcy of Massereene and the barony of Loughneagh), both of which are currently held by Viscount Massereene and Ferrard. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/7 "2019-02-21T10:59:59Z")
As an additional question, can the title move “upstream” so to speak ? I.e if John the Brave, only son of James the Smith, gets a title for courage on the battlefield and later dies childless and without siblings, does his father inherit the title? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/8 "2019-02-21T11:56:06Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > As an additional question, can the title move “upstream” so to speak ? I.e if John the Brave, only son of James the Smith, gets a title for courage on the battlefield and later dies childless and without siblings, does his father inherit the title? It wouldn’t normally be possible, but some peerages were granted with “special remainders” to make it less likely that a title would go extinct. At least one person (Lord Nelson, the one from the Battle of Trafalgar) was granted a barony that would be inherited by his father in the absence of any heirs of his own. His father didn’t live long enough to inherit it, but it did go through his father to his older brother (siblings also wouldn’t normally inherit from the original grantee). ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/9 "2019-02-21T14:01:10Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > It wouldn’t normally be possible, but some peerages were granted with “special remainders” to make it less likely that a title would go extinct. At least one person (Lord Nelson, the one from the Battle of Trafalgar) was granted a barony that would be inherited by his father in the absence of any heirs of his own. His father didn’t live long enough to inherit it, but it did go through his father to his older brother (siblings also wouldn’t normally inherit from the original grantee). Also see the example of the Churchills. The sons of the first Duke of Marlborough died as boys, and he was left with no male heir. To keep the title going, his eldest daughter was given a special grant to succeed to the title and became Duchess of Marlborough in her own right. When she died later also without an heir, the title went to her nephew, her younger sister’s son. This is not what usually happens within Duke’s families, now or in the 1700s. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/10 "2019-02-21T19:11:27Z")
Can the monarch exercise any of these powers without the advice/consent/etc of Parliament? ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/11 "2019-02-21T21:31:59Z")
In theory, yes. But it is pretty unlikely that he/she would. The two last hereditary titles to be created (aside from various Royals) went to elderly childless men (one homosexual) and soon became extinct. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/12 "2019-02-21T22:38:04Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > The two last hereditary titles to be created (aside from various Royals) went to elderly childless men (one homosexual) and soon became extinct. The Earldom of Stockton (Harold Macmillan’s one) lives on via Macmillan’s grandson, and that was the last non-Royal one created. Actually, come to think of it, wasn’t Denis Thatcher created a hereditary baronet? So his not-at-all-noble son Mark inherited? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/13 "2019-02-22T00:31:56Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > The author of Downton also used as a plot device an entail, i.e., where an ancestor had specified in his will that the family wealth (irrespective of whatever statute law governed the title) could only be inherited in full and by a legitimate male heir. You may recall that an entail was a driving force behind the plot of Pride and Prejudice - all the Bennet girls had to marry wealth or rely on the generosity of the heir on their father’s death. > > I also have a will from a possible ancestor of mine in the 18th century, which is almost paranoid in specifying how none of his money is to be inherited by an illegitimate child, even down to four or five subsequent generations - page after page of it. But then, he was a slave-owning planter in Jamaica, and there is reason to believe he had at least one illegitimate child of his own, whom he supported and educated up to the age of 21, after which he accepted no obligation. > > The bloodline mattered in those days. Entails weren’t finally abolished until the 1920s. I was under the impression the idea of an entail was to keep the estate whole. For instance, the 7th Marquess of Bath’s estate (lovely manor, worth the tour by the by) and title are going to the heir apparent, he has no option to sell any of it off if he had some financial trouble. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/14 "2019-02-22T01:03:03Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I was under the impression the idea of an entail was to keep the estate whole . . . And also to keep it in the family. If I have an estate which s entailed, on my death it will pass to the next male heir of the original owner (who will be my eldest son, if I have one; otherwise some other male relative of mine). There is nothing I can do to prevent this. The result is that my interest in the estate is limited to my own lifetime, and that’s all I can can sell. Even if I do sell my interest in the estate to you, on my death you will lose the title that you gained from me, and the estate will pass back to my son or other male relative. This naturally limits your desire to buy my interest in the estate, and the price you will be prepared to pay, if you do buy. It creates other problems; I can only mortgage my own interest in the estate, which limits my capacity to raise money, which makes it difficult if the estate needs money spent on it to maintain or improve its productivity. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/15 "2019-02-22T04:53:19Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > And also to keep it in the family. If I have an estate which s entailed, on my death it will pass to the next male heir of the original owner (who will be my eldest son, if I have one; otherwise some other male relative of mine). There is nothing I can do to prevent this. The result is that my interest in the estate is limited to my own lifetime, and that’s all I can can sell. Even if I do sell my interest in the estate to you, on my death you will lose the title that you gained from me, and the estate will pass back to my son or other male relative. This naturally limits your desire to buy my interest in the estate, and the price you will be prepared to pay, if you do buy. > > It creates other problems; I can only mortgage my own interest in the estate, which limits my capacity to raise money, which makes it difficult if the estate needs money spent on it to maintain or improve its productivity. There is something both ridiculous and charming about the modern nobility. Take away political power and then even status and wealth become a bizarre burden for their station. So if they can’t declare bankruptcy and they can’t sell what can a broke Duke do? I’d imagine survive with donations from historical societies. Has an entail ever been just run into the ground? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/16 "2019-02-22T05:36:37Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > There is something both ridiculous and charming about the modern nobility. Take away political power and then even status and wealth become a bizarre burden for their station. > > So if they can’t declare bankruptcy and they can’t sell what can a broke Duke do? I’d imagine survive with donations from historical societies. Has an entail ever been just run into the ground? Precisely because of the commercial impracticalities that arise from entails, English law was changed in the nineteenth century to provide a procedure for converting entailed estates into regular unencumbered title. The procedure required co-operation between the current owner has his (adult) heir plus a court application, so wasn’t straightforward, but it could be done, once the heir was aged over 21. Further legal changes in the 20th century prohibited the creation of new entailed estates, and most of the ones that used to exist have been converted into straightforward ownership. Furthermore, most English landed estates associated with the nobility have by now been transferred into trusts for the benefit of family members. And the trust will usually have power to sell the land (or any other trust assets) and acquire different property (which may or may not be land) and hold that property for the benefit of family members. And of course the trust can mortgage the land, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/17 "2019-02-23T12:09:55Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Can the monarch exercise any of these powers without the advice/consent/etc of Parliament? Minor nitpick: Traditionally, it is the Prime Minister who advises the monarch on the creation of peerages. You would think that the difference between being advised by the Prime Minister and by Parliament doesn’t matter, because the Prime Minister necessarily has the support of the majority of the House of Commons, but in some situations it can matter. More recently, the parties have come to an arrangement (which is, to my knowledge, not laid down in statute) whereby a cross-party commission of the House of Lords would receive and debate suggestions for peerages and make a nomination to the Prime Minister, who then formally advises the monarch. All this does not apply, AFAIK, to the royal dukedoms. It is still customary that princes of the royal family receive a dukedom as a wedding gift (Harry, for instance, was made Duke of Sussex last year), and the Prime Ministers give pretty much freee rein to the Queen to decide on this. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/18 "2019-02-23T13:25:11Z")
In the recent obits of Marcia Williams, PM Harold Wilson’s private secretary, much was made of the dubious personalities who he had recommended for peerages and knighthoods in his resignation honours list, many of whom she had supposedly included on her own initiative (and whom she owed favours to). His other aides, Joe Haines and Bernard Donahue, hated her, and the degree of insolence with which she treated the PM was astonishing, leading some to speculate that she had some secret blackmail hold over him. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/19 "2019-02-23T16:25:05Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > There is something both ridiculous and charming about the modern nobility. Take away political power and then even status and wealth become a bizarre burden for their station. > > So if they can’t declare bankruptcy and they can’t sell what can a broke Duke do? I’d imagine survive with donations from historical societies. Has an entail ever been just run into the ground? There is a BBC show about British nobles that rent out their manors for events and as hotels. It’s great to see a clearly insane baronet (or whatever) explain to his guests (who are wealthy enough to rent out his house) how he, a peer, is better than they are (even though he can’t afford to live in his own house). I especially enjoyed his use of “ancient family” to describe the peerage, as if the rest of us just appeared out of no where last week. Also he rode around his garden, bareback, on a horse name Barack O’Bounder. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/20 "2019-02-23T18:16:12Z")
I used to know the Earl of Dundee. Mad as a spoon but friendly. If I remember what he described, his wife and he rent out rooms in his home for holidays and in the mornings he serves tea and coffee while his wife cooks breakfast. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947.md?page=2)