# Inheritance of British noble titles **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 21, 2019, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947 "2019-02-21T07:24:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/21 "2019-02-23T18:19:06Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > More recently, the parties have come to an arrangement (which is, to my knowledge, not laid down in statute) whereby a cross-party commission of the House of Lords would receive and debate suggestions for peerages and make a nomination to the Prime Minister, who then formally advises the monarch. Not quite right. The Commission makes suggestions for peerages for Crossbenchers only. For party peers, they vet them for suitability (financial probity, background etc) just to ensure outright criminals aren’t knowingly being raised to the peerage. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/22 "2019-02-23T18:31:30Z")
The previous Lord Nelson was a police sergeant, as is the current one - all descended from Admiral Nelson’s brother. Another ‘special remainder’ allowed the title to descend in the female line if necessary. The Nelson peerage came with a perpetual pension, but the State bought it out some generations ago, like the Marlborough one. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/23 "2019-02-23T18:33:47Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I used to know the Earl of Dundee. Mad as a spoon but friendly. If I remember what he described, his wife and he rent out rooms in his home for holidays and in the mornings he serves tea and coffee while his wife cooks breakfast. I know the Earl of Mar and Kellie (not bosom buddies or anything, but well enough to chat to him in the street) and he’s a nice, thoughtful man. I don’t think his family have had much in the way of riches for a few generations. He worked for a living as a social worker - there can’t be many Earls who’ve chosen that career path! ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/24 "2019-02-23T19:11:59Z")
Also, please note that the modern American notion of what adoption is like is a recent thing which arose in the U.S. in the mid-twentieth century. By this I mean someone adopting a chlld who is completely unrelated, genetically different, and unknown to the adopter before the adoption process began. (An adoption like this is actually kind of hip among current American celebrities.) A British nobleman in the era of _Downton Abbey_ would have found the equivalent of modern American adoption bizarre: > **[Adoption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoption)** > > Adoption is a process whereby a person assumes the parenting of another, usually a child, from that person's biological or legal parent or parents. Legal adoptions permanently transfer all rights and responsibilities, along with filiation, from the biological parents to the adoptive parents. > Unlike guardianship or other systems designed for the care of the young, adoption is intended to effect a permanent change in status and as such requires societal recognition, either through legal or relig... ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/25 "2019-02-24T08:17:23Z")
If memory serves, informal adoption, without legal sanction or implications per se, may well have happened in the UK for a long time, but even after assorted 19th century scandals to do with “baby farming” and grim workhouse/orphanage-to-apprenticeship set-ups, it took until the 1920s for there to be legally-regulated adoption processes. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/26 "2019-02-24T10:16:51Z")
I know the Earl of Essex is a Deputy Headmaster somewhere…and there’s a lord in Scotland who works in a petrol station (doesn’t own them, works in one), and there’s a baroness in Ireland who lives in a council flat with some ridiculously old furniture… ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/27 "2019-02-24T11:15:02Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > A British nobleman in the era of _Downton Abbey_ would have found the equivalent of modern American adoption bizarre But not if it were a matter of saving the family’s face by providing cover for a daughter’s indiscretion, if Downton Abbey itself was to be believed. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/28 "2019-02-24T13:59:04Z")
I’ve never watched _Downton Abbey_, but some reviews say that the adoption plot wasn’t believable. > **[Downton Abbey’s Alarming Adoption Plot](https://www.thedailybeast.com/downton-abbeys-alarming-adoption-plot)** > > As an adoptive parent, I felt for the family that had loved the baby and lost her. There was scarcely a mention that Edith’s change of heart would wreak havoc in theirs. [https://www.esserlawoffice.com/blog/adoption/2014/02/28/downton-abbey-adoption-plotline/](https://www.esserlawoffice.com/blog/adoption/2014/02/28/downton-abbey-adoption-plotline/) > **[Is Lady Edith's Marigold Adoption Legal On 'Downton'? They're Reunited But It...](https://www.bustle.com/articles/64288-is-lady-ediths-marigold-adoption-legal-on-downton-theyre-reunited-but-it-feels-so-wrong)** > > Oh, the hot mess that is Lady Edith on Downton Abbey. Yes, I'm happy she has reunited with her daughter Marigold and can stop harassing the Drewe family, but could Edith really take her daughter back like she did in Episode 6 of Season 5? What… Are there any real cases of a member of the nobility adopting a random child at the time of _Downton Abbey_, putting aside for the moment whether such a child could inherit a title? ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/29 "2019-02-24T15:27:31Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I know the Earl of Essex is a Deputy Headmaster somewhere… It seems Wikipedia considers peers relevant enough to deserve an article just on the grounds of holding a peerage, so the current Earl of Essex also has an [entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Capell,_11th_Earl_of_Essex). Seems he was deputy headmaster in a primary school in Lancashire but kept a low profile about his title amongst his colleagues (which is feasible in the UK because British peers all have ordinary family names in addition to the title, and the two need not necessarily be similar). ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/30 "2019-02-24T17:39:24Z")
> [@l0k1](#): > > There is a BBC show about British nobles that rent out their manors for events and as hotels. It’s great to see a clearly insane baronet (or whatever) explain to his guests (who are wealthy enough to rent out his house) how he, a peer, is better than they are (even though he can’t afford to live in his own house). I especially enjoyed his use of “ancient family” to describe the peerage, as if the rest of us just appeared out of no where last week. > > Also he rode around his garden, bareback, on a horse name Barack O’Bounder. What’s the title of this show? I must see it! ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/31 "2019-02-25T02:21:36Z")
> [@l0k1](#): > > There is a BBC show about British nobles that rent out their manors for events and as hotels. It’s great to see a clearly insane baronet (or whatever) explain to his guests (who are wealthy enough to rent out his house) how he, a peer, is better than they are (even though he can’t afford to live in his own house). I especially enjoyed his use of “ancient family” to describe the peerage, as if the rest of us just appeared out of no where last week. > > Also he rode around his garden, bareback, on a horse name Barack O’Bounder. A baronet is not a peer. > **[Baronet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baronet)** > > A baronet (/ˈbærənɪt/ or /ˈbærəˌnɛt/; abbreviated Bart or Bt) or the female equivalent, a baronetess (/ˈbærənɪtɪs/, /ˈbærənɪtɛs/, or /ˌbærəˈnɛtɛs/; abbreviation Btss), is the holder of a baronetcy, a hereditary title awarded by the British Crown. The title of baronet is mentioned as early as the 14th century; however, in its current usage it was created by James I of England in 1611 as a means of raising funds for the crown. > Baronets rank below barons and above knights bachelor. Like knights,... > [@](#): > > A baronetcy is the only British hereditary honour that is not a peerage So when you picked a title to lead in to “or whatever”, you chose poorly. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/32 "2019-02-25T08:00:34Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I’ve never watched _Downton Abbey_, but some reviews say that the adoption plot wasn’t believable. > > [Downton Abbey’s Alarming Adoption Plot](https://www.thedailybeast.com/downton-abbeys-alarming-adoption-plot) > > [https://www.esserlawoffice.com/blog/adoption/2014/02/28/downton-abbey-adoption-plotline/](https://www.esserlawoffice.com/blog/adoption/2014/02/28/downton-abbey-adoption-plotline/) > > [Is Lady Edith's Marigold Adoption Legal On 'Downton'? They're Reunited But It Feels So Wrong](https://www.bustle.com/articles/64288-is-lady-ediths-marigold-adoption-legal-on-downton-theyre-reunited-but-it-feels-so-wrong) > > Are there any real cases of a member of the nobility adopting a random child at the time of _Downton Abbey_, putting aside for the moment whether such a child could inherit a title? I’m not sure those reviews are good examples. The 3rd review says adoptive parents effectively had no rights and birth parents could take the child back at anytime, which is exactly what happened twice. And that directly contradicts what the 2nd review says about how unlikely it is that Edith would be able to unwind the adoption. The 1st review is really just the author calling out Edith for the emotional pain she caused Mrs. Drewe. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/33 "2019-02-25T17:24:48Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > …Actually, come to think of it, wasn’t Denis Thatcher created a hereditary baronet? So his not-at-all-noble son Mark inherited? That’s right: [Thatcher baronets - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcher_baronets) Unlike the British practice, Japanese noblemen have adopted sons from time to time when they had none of their own, or had sons with concubines, to preserve the family title and holdings. Given their birth trends since WWII, the Imperial Family might soon have to consider adoption or allowing daughters to accede. > **[And then there was one?: Japan's right royal crisis](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2012/01/17/issues/and-then-there-was-one-japans-right-royal-crisis/#.XHQj-8BKiUk)** > > According to the Japanese Constitution, the Emperor is the symbol of the Japanese state and the unity of the Japanese people. You could thus say it is symbolic that the Imperial household is now facing an unprecedented demographic crisis, one that... ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/34 "2019-02-25T18:01:20Z")
Malden Capell: re: your cite from Debrett’s: I know that when William and Kate got married (or shortly thereafter) Parliament passed a law defining succession to the throne for his children as being gender-neutral primogeniture. Does this mean that if something bad should happen to Prince George, Princess Charlotte might inherit the throne but not the Duchy of Cambridge, etc? Or were William’s other titles made similar in that regard (either by that law or by the original letter patent of his titles’ creation, or by a separate act) to his position vis a vis the throne? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/35 "2019-02-25T18:21:36Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Malden Capell: > > re: your cite from Debrett’s: I know that when William and Kate got married (or shortly thereafter) Parliament passed a law defining succession to the throne for his children as being gender-neutral primogeniture. Does this mean that if something bad should happen to Prince George, Princess Charlotte might inherit the throne but not the Duchy of Cambridge, etc? Or were William’s other titles made similar in that regard (either by that law or by the original letter patent of his titles’ creation, or by a separate act) to his position vis a vis the throne? As it stands currently, Cambridge and William’s other titles (Earl of Strathearn and Baron Carrickfergus) are limited to “the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten” ([Source](https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/59798/page/10297)), so if something happens to George, then Charlotte will inherit the throne and Louis will get the other titles. This assumes that whatever happens to George happens before William becomes king. Once William inherits the throne, his titles “merge into the Crown” (because a monarch can’t hold a title from himself), and at that point nobody can inherit them, but the titles can be recreated anew. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/36 "2019-02-25T18:34:07Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I know that when William and Kate got married (or shortly thereafter) Parliament passed a law defining succession to the throne for his children as being gender-neutral primogeniture. Does this mean that if something bad should happen to Prince George, Princess Charlotte might inherit the throne but not the Duchy of Cambridge, etc? Or were William’s other titles made similar in that regard (either by that law or by the original letter patent of his titles’ creation, or by a separate act) to his position vis a vis the throne? Succession to the Dukedom of Cambridge (and the Earldom of Strathearn and Barony of Carrickfergus) is to [heirs male](https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/59798/page/10297), so even if something bad happens to George, Charlotte will not inherit those titles. In the likely course of things, when William becomes King his titles will merge with the Crown and cease to exist. However, if both William and George were to die before becoming King, then the throne would go to Charlotte while the Dukedom of Cambridge would go to Louis (William’s second son). EDIT: snap, **slash2k**! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/37 "2019-02-25T20:30:34Z")
The Act to which \*\*cmkeller \*\*alluded, passed two years after Will and Kate got hitched: [Succession to the Crown Act 2013 - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_Crown_Act_2013) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/38 "2019-02-25T20:54:37Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > As it stands currently, Cambridge and William’s other titles (Earl of Strathearn and Baron Carrickfergus) are limited to “the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten” ([Source](https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/59798/page/10297)), so if something happens to George, then Charlotte will inherit the throne and Louis will get the other titles. > > This assumes that whatever happens to George happens before William becomes king. Once William inherits the throne, his titles “merge into the Crown” (because a monarch can’t hold a title from himself), and at that point nobody can inherit them, but the titles can be recreated anew. Doesn’t the Queen hold the Duchy of Lancaster from herself? ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/39 "2019-02-25T21:34:36Z")
On a side note, since Christopher Guest’s children with Jamie Lee Curtis are adopted, they cannot inherit his peerage, so it passes to his brother upon his death. I still remember being surprised when I found out that he was a British Lord. Certainly doesn’t fit the stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947/40 "2019-02-25T22:12:26Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Doesn’t the Queen hold the Duchy of Lancaster from herself? The duchy (the landed estate) is separate from the dukedom (the title). The Queen holds the lands and other properties that comprise the Duchy of Lancaster; since the reign of Henry IV (reigned 1399-1413), the estate has provided a private income for the reigning sovereign. However, Henry IV’s son (Henry V) was actually the last person to hold the title of Duke of Lancaster, as the title merged in the crown at his accession. Traditionally, the Queen is toasted as “The Queen, Duke of Lancaster” in Lancashire (as HM is toasted as “The Queen, Duke of Normandy” in the Channel Islands), but neither title holds any legal significance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inheritance-of-british-noble-titles/829947.md?page=3)