# Inmate tatoos name of murder victim (who was his cousin) into forehead of her killer **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495 "2006-10-30T22:22:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/181 "2006-11-03T10:55:14Z")
[QUOTE=Firebringer] Am I right in thinking that your position is that in a system of laws vigilantism is never ever justified if due process has been followed? [/quote] Almost right. In my mind, vigilantism is never justified. > [@](#): > > If so to my mind you favour a legal system not a justice system. How many Departments of Legal Systems or Ministries of Legal Systems have you encountered in your life? In mine, I’ve encountered exactly zero of them. What I have encountered is Departments and Minsitries of Justice. > [@](#): > > Justice being simply a sometimes side product of the application of law. To my mind that’s scarier than mob rule. To me, the mob rule is the scariest as it’s anarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/182 "2006-11-03T11:52:29Z")
[QUOTE=Arac] I think I just came down with irony-poisoning. [/QUOTE] Yeah, it must be making the rounds because I just got a case of it. Now you seem to be implying it’s my ‘style’ that has your stockings hanging out of the hamper. Yet Monty’s self-lauding seems to be the epitome of rational debate. Why, even as we speak, he’s probably on his way out the door to visit prisoners and do works of mercy dressed as Shirley Temple. Don’t anyone remind him that the bible is probably not referring to child killers, who wouldn’t _make it to prison_, but rather enemies of the empire and debtors. > [@](#): > > However, suffering those things means that you getting on your high-horse and dismissing these people as monsters, or some kind of animalistic sub-species unworthy of the basic, ethical right not to be tortured comes across as arrogant and self-righteous. What the fuck are you talking about? Suffering abuse is not what makes one unworthy, it is _abusing someone else_ that makes one an unworthy human being. Are we not responsible for our own actions anymore? I happen to know people who have been raped or abused. Not one of them uses it as justification to victimize someone else. Does that make them more worthy than me? Maybe. I’d be OK with that. I’m not OK with rationalization. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/183 "2006-11-03T12:19:25Z")
the rednecks involved in the movie were being taken TO court. Sam believed they would ‘get off’ or not had much of a sentence, he gunned them down in a crowded staircase, also hitting a cop causing said cop to loose a leg. ---
**Author:** ![Firebringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f04885/32.png) [@Firebringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Firebringer)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/184 "2006-11-03T12:51:29Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Almost right. In my mind, vigilantism is never justified. How many Departments of Legal Systems or Ministries of Legal Systems have you encountered in your life? In mine, I’ve encountered exactly zero of them. What I have encountered is Departments and Minsitries of Justice. To me, the mob rule is the scariest as it’s anarchy. [/QUOTE] Calling something a justice system doesn’t mean it deals in justice. I can call my cat a dog but that doesn’t mean it gives birth to puppies. As far as mob rule goes I think there’s a difference between that and vigilatism. To my mind vigilantism implies a moral (just) basis for it’s actions. Mob rule depends soley popular sentiment/hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/185 "2006-11-03T14:09:10Z")
And you can call vigilantism justice all you want. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/186 "2006-11-03T14:27:32Z")
[QUOTE=Waverly] Yet Monty’s self-lauding seems to be the epitome of rational debate. Why, even as we speak, he’s probably on his way out the door to visit prisoners and do works of mercy dressed as Shirley Temple. [/quote] I do works of mercy and have done so for prisoners on occasion, not that it’s any of your business or even relevant to the discussion at hand. I’ve never in my life dressed as Shirley Temple. > [@Waverly](#): > > Don’t anyone remind him that the bible is probably not referring to child killers, who wouldn’t _make it to prison_, but rather enemies of the empire and debtors. Wow. That’s pretty dismissive and inane to boot. Regardless of what the Bible’s referring to in [Matthew 18:21-22](http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/18/21-22) (I’ve highlighted the appropriate verse to make it easier for you to see them), > [@](#): > > [sup]21[/sup]Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? > [sup]22[/sup]Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Another key verse in my religion is [found in another volume of Scripture](http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/64/10): > [@](#): > > I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. > [@Waverly](#): > > Suffering abuse is not what makes one unworthy, it is _abusing someone else_ that makes one an unworthy human being. So, explain to me how your hero is so cool. After all, he abused someone with that nifty tattoo. > [@Waverly](#): > > Are we not responsible for our own actions anymore? I happen to know people who have been raped or abused. I know someone very close to me who’s been abused. Yet that person doesn’t go around wishing death or abuse on the abuser. Kind of odd, ain’t it? > [@Waverly](#): > > Not one of them uses it as justification to victimize someone else. Does that make them more worthy than me? Maybe. I’d be OK with that. I’m not OK with rationalization. Seems that you are much more than okay with it. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/187 "2006-11-03T19:17:34Z")
Monty, are you not a native English speaker? I don’t want to accuse you of being dense if, in fact, you are trying to understand English as second language. > [@](#): > > So, explain to me how your hero is so cool. After all, he abused someone with that nifty tattoo. See, I referred to your assumed protagonist as both a violent guy, and someone who ought to be punished. I can’t tell if you are an idgit building a stawman, or you are having difficulty with the language. What I did suggest is that if, and only if, he did what he did in full knowledge that he’d be punished, I at least give him credit for taking responsibility for the consequences of his revenge. > [@](#): > > Seems that you are much more than okay with it. OK with considering a survivor of abuse who nevertheless becomes a productive member of society an eminently worthy human being? Yeah, I’m OK with it. I just said so. See, again with the language problems. I don’t want to have a Jesus discussion with you. Whoever Jesus was, and whatever statements are attributed to him centuries after his death, I gotta say that I disagree that _every_ crime is forgivable. He is welcome to smite me if he has a problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![mamboman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mamboman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mamboman)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/188 "2006-11-03T21:48:11Z")
[QUOTE=BoBettie] For the curious, here’s a pic: [http://www.theindychannel.com/2006/0928/9954539\_240X180.jpg](http://www.theindychannel.com/2006/0928/9954539_240X180.jpg) [/QUOTE] Excellent penmanship. mm ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/189 "2006-11-03T23:27:32Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] “Ro-Ark?” BTW, what was the “technicality?” Yes, I understand the movie’s fictional; I’m just curious now about that one detail. [/QUOTE] You’ll have to anger your god and actually see the film. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/190 "2006-11-03T23:37:14Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] “Ro-Ark?” BTW, what was the “technicality?” Yes, I understand the movie’s fictional; I’m just curious now about that one detail. [/QUOTE] there was no “technicality” as stated, the rednecks involved were gunned down pre trial. The father knew that they were not facing death penalty or even life w/o parole for the rape of his daughter, since the law involved did not include those as potential sentences. They were facing less than what the father thought they should get, and he also factored in that they were white, and his daughter was black, therefor probably even less time. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/191 "2006-11-03T23:41:16Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] You’ll have to anger your god and actually see the film. [/QUOTE] No. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/192 "2006-11-04T00:09:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Monty, are you not a native English speaker? I don’t want to accuse you of being dense if, in fact, you are trying to understand English as second language. Actually, I grew up speaking English, the Dixie version. What’s your excuse for not understanding what you posted here yourself? > [@](#): > > See, I referred to your assumed protagonist as both a violent guy, and someone who ought to be punished. He’s nott my assumed protagonist. He’s both a prisoner and the victim of a crime perpetrated on him in prison. The other individual is also a prisoner and a violent criminal. Because the first person was imprisoned for a violent crime does not make him any less a human being. > [@](#): > > I can’t tell if you are an idgit building a stawman, or you are having difficulty with the language. Neither. But too bad your attempted use of either insult didn’t work out for your strawman trick. > [@](#): > > What I did suggest is that if, and only if, he did what he did in full knowledge that he’d be punished, I at least give him credit for taking responsibility for the consequences of his revenge. No, you merely insulted others for not accepting the latest criminal act under discussion as karma. Oh, yes, “and don’t waste any tears” either. > [@](#): > > OK with considering a survivor of abuse who nevertheless becomes a productive member of society an eminently worthy human being? Yeah, I’m OK with it. I just said so. See, again with the language problems. But before he becomes a productive member of society, he’s not really human, right? > [@](#): > > I don’t want to have a Jesus discussion with you. Then what was the point of mentioning what the Bible did or didn’t say? > [@](#): > > Whoever Jesus was, and whatever statements are attributed to him centuries after his death, I gotta say that I disagree that every crime is forgivable. He is welcome to smite me if he has a problem with that. Would it be karma if the lightning bolt left a tattoo on your forehead? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/193 "2006-11-04T00:11:48Z")
Thanks for the info, **wring**. That makes me even less inclined to watch the movie. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/194 "2006-11-04T00:17:03Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Thanks for the info, **wring**. That makes me even less inclined to watch the movie. [/QUOTE] you’re really not missing much. although Keifer Sutherland, IMHO did a tremendous job in his role. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/195 "2006-11-04T00:21:05Z")
[QUOTE=FormerMarineGuy] Have you ever seen the movie _A Time to Kill_? Perfectly justified in my mind. I would support it if something happened to my son or daughter, or my wife or sister, or my mother or grandmother. Shall I keep going? [/QUOTE] Of course the movie seems perfectly justified, it’s a fictional event written by John Grisham, who stacks the deck in every possible way to make it perfectly justified. Most of all by gving the viewer perfect knowledge; there is never a moment’s doubt that the people accused actually did it. Try this one: a man breaks into a house at night and sexually assaults a little girl right in her own bedroom. The father knows who did it, and he knows that out legal (not justice) system will never mete out a fitting punishment. He decides to take matters into his own hand and give the criminal exactly what he deserves for molesting his innocent little daughter. [Perfectly justified?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=392887) How about this: a scumbag in Detroit rapes and murders a 16-year-old girl. We know for an absolute fact the guy is guilty: he’s given a full confession of what he did, and is convicted by a jury. The judge himself said during sentencing that death was the only fitting punishment him (the bleeding hearts, however, had tied his hands by taking this option away). Clearly, the only way real justice will be seen is at the hands of a fellow inmate. [What do you suggest they do to him?](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C07E5D6113CF934A1575BC0A9649C8B63) Right there is a neat summation of why I’ll take the current US legal system any day over the baying of a bunch of yahoos trying to outdo each other for righteous indignation. I would be interested in hearing your explanation of how they’re perfectly justified, or at least of how you’ll be able to tell when it’s justified and when it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/196 "2006-11-04T00:50:51Z")
As someone who, back around 1981, was actually falsely accused of one of those “let’s beat him to pulp 'cause the law won’t give him justice” crimes, I’m very interested in hearing how they’re perfectly justified. For the record: my neighbors, whom I didn’t like at all and who also didn’t like me, decided the thing to do was call the Military Police and make a false charge. Luckily, when the MPs got around to informing my commanding officer, the CO, no stranger to logic, realized that I could not have done the crime accused when at that time, he and I were working together on a staff assignment. I will forever be thankful for that man’s quick response so I didn’t have to spend more than a couple of hours in the lock-up–it could very well have been the entire weekend. One MP, who was one rank below me, got disciplined for his vigilante handling of me (violently pushing me around although I was cooperating). But, of course, he was perfectly justified according to some in this thread. After all, his heart was in the right place and his mistake was in not harming me enough. I was accused of a violent crime and thus was subhuman, right? :rolleyes: I’m with **Sublight**. I’ll take the government’s Justice department over the self-righteous vigilantes. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/197 "2006-11-04T02:19:00Z")
Lesse… Waverly makes a seven sentence post. Monty quotes seven lines individually as if I had really intended them to be, you know, unrelated. Toss in a couple of non sequiturs, because what else can you do when a sentence doesn’t say much removed from its context, and at least you have a _lengthy_ rebuttal. SDSAB - Supercilious Dipshits Spewing Absolute Bullshit… Now ignorance has a man on the inside! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/198 "2006-11-04T04:20:24Z")
Not my fault you’re a troll. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/199 "2006-11-04T05:53:50Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] No. [/QUOTE] Too late - he senses your lack of faith and has used wite-out to remove your name from the book of life. See you in hell. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2006, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495/200 "2006-11-04T06:56:40Z")
Drat. And I gave away all my summer clothes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/inmate-tatoos-name-of-murder-victim-who-was-his-cousin-into-forehead-of-her-killer/378495.md?page=11)