# Innocent words with disturbing etymologies **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 6, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974 "2015-02-06T15:18:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/41 "2015-02-09T16:10:20Z")
Perhaps not quite what you’re looking for, but the word “nice”, which today is about as innocent a word as you can find, originally meant “stupid”. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/42 "2015-02-09T16:21:20Z")
The word “cretin” comes from a French dialectal term for “Christian”. The idea was that people with developmental disabilities might not amount to much, but at least they were Christians. So the term became a euphemism. “Those people? Oh they are Christians. \” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/43 "2015-02-09T16:23:29Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Nothing indicates that the Ḥashshāshīn really took hashish. My understanding is that the term was simply intended as insulting - by the sect’s (many) Muslim enemies. Western chronicles of the time interpreted the term literally, and invented the intriguing fantasy that the sect’s killers were doped up with hashish as part of their indoctrination. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/44 "2015-02-09T16:59:53Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > Perhaps not quite what you’re looking for, but the word “nice”, which today is about as innocent a word as you can find, originally meant “stupid”. “Nice” is interesting. Didn’t it also go through a phase where it meant something like “disingenuous” or “tricky”. ISTR hearing a discussion on the radio about the phrase “a nice distinction” (in debate) being used like we might say “a distinction without a difference” or something like that. > [@robert\_columbia](#): > > The word “cretin” comes from a French dialectal term for “Christian”. The idea was that people with developmental disabilities might not amount to much, but at least they were Christians. So the term became a euphemism. “Those people? Oh they are Christians. \” This is interesting too, although kind of the reverse of what I had in mind – here the positive term has become offensive over time. I had never bothered to look it up, but I had always assumed that “cretin” had some relationship to Crete. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/45 "2015-02-09T17:03:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > My understanding is that the term was simply intended as insulting - by the sect’s (many) Muslim enemies. > > Western chronicles of the time interpreted the term literally, and invented the intriguing fantasy that the sect’s killers were doped up with hashish as part of their indoctrination. That’s my understanding as well. What’s more, even if they had - for whatever reason - decided to self-identify as “the hashish-eaters,” they wouldn’t have used the Arabic _Ḥashshāshīn_, but the Persian equivalent (whatever that is). [They were pretty big on preferring Persian to Arabic, see.](http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/iranica/militaria/iranian-military-history-and-armies-post-islamic-era-to-1899/professor-farhad-daftary-hassan-sabbah/) ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/46 "2015-02-09T18:42:38Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > “Bad” is probably the most common word with a weirdly offensive etymology. There was a word “bæddel” in Old English which meant homosexual or effeminate. At some point people began using it the same way some people now use “gay” as a general term meaning stupid, defective, weak, etc. It then slowly became the standard antonym to “good” in English: > > [bad | Etymology of bad by etymonline](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bad) That’s double-plus ungood. 🙂 (Also, for some reason it reminded me of SNL’s “Bad Cabaret for Children”.) ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/47 "2015-02-09T18:45:10Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > The word “cretin” comes from a French dialectal term for “Christian”. The idea was that people with developmental disabilities might not amount to much, but at least they were Christians. So the term became a euphemism. “Those people? Oh they are Christians. \” It’s kind of the same (AND simultaneously kind of opposite) to saying that someone is “special”. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/48 "2015-02-09T18:50:55Z")
_Bonfire_ from “bone fire” to burn the bones of a convicted felon after hanging, since his body cou;dn’t be buried in a consecrated cemetary. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/49 "2015-02-09T18:51:44Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > That’s my understanding as well. > > What’s more, even if they had - for whatever reason - decided to self-identify as “the hashish-eaters,” they wouldn’t have used the Arabic _Ḥashshāshīn_, but the Persian equivalent (whatever that is). [They were pretty big on preferring Persian to Arabic, see.](http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/iranica/militaria/iranian-military-history-and-armies-post-islamic-era-to-1899/professor-farhad-daftary-hassan-sabbah/) I must admit, though, it is one of those stories one almost _wants_ to be true. Murderous hippies! 😃 Take _that_, Summer of Love. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/50 "2015-02-09T21:52:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I must admit, though, it is one of those stories one almost _wants_ to be true. > > Murderous hippies! 😃 Take _that_, Summer of Love. 😛 Dude, the story totally rocks. Charlie Manson in a turban, man! Who can resist _that_? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/51 "2015-02-10T00:36:08Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > “Nice” is interesting. Didn’t it also go through a phase where it meant something like “disingenuous” or “tricky”. ISTR hearing a discussion on the radio about the phrase “a nice distinction” (in debate) being used like we might say “a distinction without a difference” or something like that. “Nice” did (and still does, although it’s a less common usage) mean fine, subtle, or precise. This is what is usually meant by “a nice distinction”. I believe the “nice” in the expression “nice and neat” was originally intended to indicate precision and order rather than pleasantness, although in this context the meaning is close enough that it doesn’t make that much difference. There’s a scene in Jane Austen’s _Northanger Abbey_ (written in 1799, published posthumously in 1817) where the rather naive heroine Catherine uses “nice” to mean pleasant and is corrected by her friend and love interest Henry Tilney: > [@](#): > > “But now really, do not you think Udolpho the nicest book in the world?” > > “The nicest — by which I suppose you mean the neatest. That must depend upon the binding.” > > “Henry,” said Miss Tilney, “you are very impertinent. Miss Morland, he is treating you exactly as he does his sister. He is forever finding fault with me, for some incorrectness of language, and now he is taking the same liberty with you. The word ‘nicest,’ as you used it, did not suit him; and you had better change it as soon as you can, or we shall be overpowered with Johnson and Blair all the rest of the way.” > > “I am sure,” cried Catherine, “I did not mean to say anything wrong; but it is a nice book, and why should not I call it so?” > > “Very true,” said Henry, “and this is a very nice day, and we are taking a very nice walk, and you are two very nice young ladies. Oh! It is a very nice word indeed! It does for everything. Originally perhaps it was applied only to express neatness, propriety, delicacy, or refinement — people were nice in their dress, in their sentiments, or their choice. But now every commendation on every subject is comprised in that one word.” > > “While, in fact,” cried his sister, “it ought only to be applied to you, without any commendation at all. You are more nice than wise. Come, Miss Morland, let us leave him to meditate over our faults in the utmost propriety of diction, while we praise Udolpho in whatever terms we like best.” Henry would probably fit in pretty well around here. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/52 "2015-02-10T08:09:27Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > All the ones I can think of right now are apocryphal: > > \ > > rule of thumb (from the maximum acceptable girth of a stick for beating your wife). Just for the record, here’s Cecil’s article: [Does “rule of thumb” refer to an old law permitting wife beating?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2550/does-rule-of-thumb-refer-to-an-old-law-permitting-wife-beating) ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/53 "2015-02-10T09:41:30Z")
The words _pencil_ and _penis_ have a common root (so to speak). ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/54 "2015-02-10T12:43:02Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > “Nice” did (and still does, although it’s a less common usage) mean fine, subtle, or precise. This is what is usually meant by “a nice distinction”. I believe the “nice” in the expression “nice and neat” was originally intended to indicate precision and order rather than pleasantness, although in this context the meaning is close enough that it doesn’t make that much difference. > > There’s a scene in Jane Austen’s _Northanger Abbey_ (written in 1799, published posthumously in 1817) where the rather naive heroine Catherine uses “nice” to mean pleasant and is corrected by her friend and love interest Henry Tilney: > Henry would probably fit in pretty well around here. 😉 Drifting a bit off-topic from etymologies: but the quoted Catherine / Henry conversation in **Lamia** ’s above post of Feb. 9th, gives me pause for thought. I have tried, and tried, to get into Jane Austen’s novels; but after only a short while in each instance, have found self having to drop them with a verdict of “for me, unreadable”. It’s chiefly the damned Regency-period English, and usage conventions thereof, which drives me round the bend – and I realise that that is a foolish reason for being put off. The quoted material just mentioned, suggests to me that there must be good stuff in Jane A., if I could just get past the language bugbear. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/55 "2015-02-11T00:34:43Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > Drifting a bit off-topic from etymologies: but the quoted Catherine / Henry conversation in **Lamia** ’s above post of Feb. 9th, gives me pause for thought. I have tried, and tried, to get into Jane Austen’s novels; but after only a short while in each instance, have found self having to drop them with a verdict of “for me, unreadable”. It’s chiefly the damned Regency-period English, and usage conventions thereof, which drives me round the bend – and I realise that that is a foolish reason for being put off. The quoted material just mentioned, suggests to me that there must be good stuff in Jane A., if I could just get past the language bugbear. Some editions are better than others when it comes to modernized spelling and punctuation, although I can’t make any specific recommendations off the top of my head. I would say that, while it’s not considered a literary classic on the same level as her later works, _Northanger Abbey_ isn’t a bad place to start for someone who’s not sure if they’ll like Jane Austen. While all of her novels contain some humor, _Northanger Abbey_ is probably the most obviously humorous. Catherine is a big fan of Gothic romances, and keeps expecting the real world to be like her favorite novels. A lot of this involves referencing/satirizing books like _The Mysteries of Udolpho_ that are mostly forgotten today, but the genre’s tropes (spooky castles, damsels in distress, brooding heroes, etc.) remain familiar enough that it’s easy to get most of the jokes. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/56 "2015-02-11T10:52:01Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > The words _pencil_ and _penis_ have a common root (so to speak). I’ll see your pencil and raise you a vanilla. My gosh, how dirty it sounds when we etymologize. Both of them coincidentally use the same Latin diminutive suffix in their derivation. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/57 "2015-02-11T23:09:52Z")
Joystick, originally slang for penis. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/58 "2015-02-12T03:24:03Z")
Perhaps not as offensive as some of these, but it sure was embarrassing explaining the origin of _grandfather clause_ to a Russian colleague at work. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/59 "2015-02-12T03:56:51Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Perhaps not as offensive as some of these, but it sure was embarrassing explaining the origin of _grandfather clause_ to a Russian colleague at work. Huh. Another artifact of history I could have gone my whole life not knowing. This is a great example of what I was looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974/60 "2015-02-12T05:41:34Z")
[Scumbag.](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scumbag) - means condom, particularly a _used_ one. I’d hear the term for decades before hearing how it derived. Of course, “sucks” has come to be quite mainstream (even used on that family-friendly Full House TV show, by the children), and I always understood it to be a reference to oral sex. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/innocent-words-with-disturbing-etymologies/711974.md?page=2)