# Insight into the world of John Thain and his $35,000 commode **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603 "2009-01-29T20:27:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/41 "2009-02-01T17:57:13Z")
In this context it is interesting to note that Barach Obama passed on the custom of redecorating the Oval Office. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/42 "2009-02-01T18:58:28Z")
Redoing the office is a way of saying ,I am in charge now, the old guy is gone. I will pee in his lair. I will mark his territory as mine. …He could have just painted it. It is wasteful to put 1.2 mill in a bathroom redecoration. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/43 "2009-02-01T19:07:12Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I just consulted a good friend of mine on this topic. He’s in the consumer banking industry, but his original ambition was to go into investment banking. He decided against it after having contact with investment bankers in B-school and in his job search. > > His conclusions are these: > > Investment bankers value a particular personality type… Well, what you’ve described is high-functioning sociopathy. That does seem to be frighteningly common in that industry. That said, it’s not unknown elsewhere; Toronto Mayor David Miller spent $2 million in taxpayer money redecorating his office. Now, don’t get me wrong; the Mayor of the City of Toronto should have a spiffy office. He’s a very important person, who is visited by heads of government, heads of state, representatives of large interest groups, captains of industry. There are fifteen U.S. states and five Canadian provinces with smaller populations than Toronto. But holy flying fuck, TWO MILLION DOLLARS? Even assuming that the redecoration included a lobby, a conference room and a shitter, you’ve got to be pretty frickin’ loose with the Amex to run up $2 million. For $2 million, they could have built a luxurious lakeside house for the mayor to do his business out of. Were they tiling the floors with diamonds? I’ve tried to come up with a rationale for how a man running a city in terrible debt, full of poor people who could use some help, can with a straight face authorize the use of two million dollars to redo his office, how a man could NOT at some point say “You know, maybe I don’t need two million clams to do this. Maybe I should set a budget at a quarter million. That’s enough money to build a whole house; I’m sure this place could be made to look good for a quarter million.” I just can’t build a case for it. I can only conclude Miller is a gigantic asshole. I mentioned it upthread but I’ve been in the exec officers at RIM (Blackberry) and unless money was hidden behind the drywall, I’ll tell you right now Jim Balsillie didn’t spend $2 million on his office. This is not a cheap company - they hired Aerosmith to play a concert for the employees, with the Barknaked Ladies as the opening act. Balsillie is openly trying to buy an NHL team, which will conservatively, cost him $350 million once the team’s bought and an arena either built or upgraded to move them into. So he’s not averse to forking out the bux to get what he wants, and yet no $35,000 shitter for Jim. And it is, after all, HIS money, so there’s no moral barrier to him buying a platinum urinal or whatever, but he managed to keep a lid (ha!) on it. But that’s sort of the point. **It was Jim Balsillie’s money.** Balsillie presumably elected not to spend $35,000 on a toilet because he doesn’t want to waste HIS MONEY. John Thain and David Miller were wasting other people’s money on themselves, proving Milton Friedman got at least one thing spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/44 "2009-02-01T19:42:30Z")
The worst part is that I doubt anything will ever be done about it. Obama pretty much called them out in his weekly address, but if he can’t get something done to address the already wasted money, they just get away with it. Since they’ve got so much cash it doesn’t matter if their names are shite either. They’re set. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/45 "2009-02-01T20:17:57Z")
A few months ago the conservatives were on a roll about the greedy auto workers and how their pay was not competitive with Japan. I’d love to see the Dems call them on this and cut lineworkers pay the 10% or so difference and then restrict exec compensation to Japanese equivalents. There would be some screaming as execs had their pay cut 75%. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/46 "2009-02-02T00:51:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, what you’ve described is high-functioning sociopathy. Exactly. That’s the thesis of the book [Snakes in Suits](http://www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-When-Psychopaths-Work/dp/0061147893/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233535594&sr=8-1). When psychpaths are born poor, they go into crime. But if they come from good homes and wealth, they can rise to the top of the corporate ladder, where ruthlessness and a complete lack of empathy are highly valued traits. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/47 "2009-02-02T14:11:47Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > A few months ago the conservatives were on a roll about the greedy auto workers and how their pay was not competitive with Japan. I’d love to see the Dems call them on this and cut lineworkers pay the 10% or so difference and then restrict exec compensation to Japanese equivalents. There would be some screaming as execs had their pay cut 75%. Bingo. It’s about time we goosed the ganders. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/48 "2009-02-04T20:25:38Z")
_[The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/business/04pay.html?_r=2&hp)_ reports reaction to a $500,000 cap on executive compensation at companies accepting bailout money: > [@](#): > > “That is pretty draconian — $500,000 is not a lot of money, particularly if there is no bonus,” said James F. Reda, founder and managing director of James F. Reda & Associates, a compensation consulting firm. “And you know these companies that are in trouble are not going to pay much of an annual dividend.” > > Mr. Reda said only a handful of big companies pay chief executives and other senior executives $500,000 or less in total compensation. He said such limits will make it hard for the companies to recruit and keep executives, most of whom could earn more money at other firms. > > “It would be really tough to get people to staff” companies that are forced to impose these limits, he said. “I don’t think this will work.” Hm. Maybe these companies will do just fine without executives for whom half a million isn’t enough. What makes them think they’re so uniquely capable? ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/49 "2009-02-04T20:46:24Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > 1. What the hell is Thain talking about (Part 1)? Stan O’Neil was the head of Merrill Lynch. What possibly could he have done to his office such that it was completely inappropriate for Thain’s use, that he would have to renovate it “no matter what”? Were the walls and floor carved in the shape of pornographic images? (It would have to be carving, right? Because mere images could be painted over or removed.) Why would it _need_ to be renovated no matter what? This made me think of the bar where the hoodlums from Clockwork Orange hung out. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/50 "2009-02-04T20:52:49Z")
I"m very firmly of the belief that most medium to large companies could pick from at least a dozen top lower/middle managers, put them into executive positions, pay them “only” $500.000/year, and they would do AT LEAST as good a job, if not better, than the current crop. Pick some excellent internal candidates, and give them a chance to clean up the mess left by the (now fired) executives. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/51 "2009-02-05T11:30:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > If I inherited an office and the chairs happened to be that size, I’d _have_ to redecorate. After all, a chair in my size is a lot cheaper than weekly visits to a chiropractor! > [@acsenray](#): > > You’d _have_ to redecorate? No, you’d have to replace two chairs, maybe by doing what your boss did and taking a trip to the company’s inventory of already paid-for furniture. If the chairs are that size, the table is bound to also be inadequate. By “redecorate” I mean “[make changes to the decor](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redecorate),” it doesn’t have to mean “making such changes to the decor that all trades must get involved.” Would you prefer “I’d have to change the furniture”? I don’t think the scale and expense of the redecoration was justified, but then, I also think my SiL’s redecoration of her hall was over the top… (she put in a €400 minitable after my brother vetoed another one with one more zero). And I do think that redecorating the office can be an actual necessity without even getting into the marketing aspects of it; it can be a necessity for someone whose office never is seen by outsiders at all. That’s using my definition of “redecorate” and M-W’s, mind you, I’m not sure what yours is. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603/52 "2009-02-06T01:52:53Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > If the chairs are that size, the table is bound to also be inadequate. Actually, I don’t see how that follows. I’ve seen a lot of office furniture, and, in general, there’s pretty much one kind of desk. You get to choose your chair for ergonomic reasons. > [@](#): > > By “redecorate” I mean “[make changes to the decor](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redecorate),” it doesn’t have to mean “making such changes to the decor that all trades must get involved.” It doesn’t _have_ to mean that, but generally speaking “redecorate” implies changing the entire decor of the room, not just replacing two objects. Furthermore, it strongly implies changing the _aesthetic_ appeal of the room, not replacing two objects based on their _functional_ value. > [@](#): > > Would you prefer “I’d have to change the furniture”? Would you have to change _all_ the furniture? Or just the your own chair? I don’t see why the second chair would have to be changed, since you wouldn’t be sitting in it. And I’m skeptical of your claim that the desk would _have_ to be changed. What exactly are we talking about here? Office furniture? A chair, a desk … they’re interchangeable. A chair that makes your back hurt doesn’t inevitably lead to “redecorating.” > [@](#): > > I don’t think the scale and expense of the redecoration was justified, but then, I also think my SiL’s redecoration of her hall was over the top… (she put in a €400 minitable after my brother vetoed another one with one more zero). And I do think that redecorating the office can be an actual necessity without even getting into the marketing aspects of it; it can be a necessity for someone whose office never is seen by outsiders at all. That’s using my definition of “redecorate” and M-W’s, mind you, I’m not sure what yours is. Let’s play by my definition then. “Redecorating” is the full-scale alteration of the aesthetic appeal of a room, not the replacing of a few functional items, nor is it simple repair or maintenance of normal wear and tear. Now how do you come out? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insight-into-the-world-of-john-thain-and-his-35-000-commode/483603.md?page=2)