Insurance company poopyheads

[Broomstick]

@curlcoat

Medicare was privatized because the government was unable to handle it. I dealt with Medicare prior to it going private, both as a second insurance payer and in trying to get bills paid for relatives, and it was a complete nightmare. This despite the fact that I had years of insurance experience.

Funny - my experience was the exact opposite. Mom was on Medicare for nearly 30 years before she died, oddly enough we had FAR fewer problems than we ever had with private insurance.

I have never seen proof that there are millions of people in this country that couldn’t get insurance if they had made more responsible decisions. When will the time come when the responsible are not expected to continually bail out the irresponsible?

Yes, we know your first assumption is that anyone who isn’t doing as well as you is an irresponsible lazy jerk. You’ve made that abundantly clear in prior threads.

@curlcoat

Huh. We should go to socialized medicine because it makes billing easier?

Yep, that is ONE reason - administrative costs for medical insurance is about 12-20% (it varies by company) and for single-payer systems it’s around 4-6%. Saving 6-16% on a multi-billions dollar cost is a good thing, isn’t it?

@Euphonious_Polemic

Here’s 360,000 Irresponsible people who recently lost healthcare coverage.

There’s no point in linking to supporting evidence - curlcoat always has an excuse as to why she can’t be bothered to look at it.

I’m on dial up so I am going to make an assumption about that article - it just shows that X number of people were laid off during X time period, right? If so, that has zero to do with what I said about irresponsible people

See what I’m mean? “I’m on dial up so I won’t look at it”. Your assumptions are wrong, curlcoat, it’s a short article, and it should be no problem to look at with dial-up - heck, it comes up faster than the Straight Dope.

For example, both my husband and I were out of work for most of 2008 but we still had insurance because we paid the $700 a month for COBRA. If COBRA had not been an option, we would have paid that $700 for a private policy. We had that $700 a month because we don’t live beyond our means.

What if a person who is living within his or her means doesn’t have $700 a month to spend on COBRA? I owe no one any money, I live within my means, and theres no way in hell right now that I could shell out $700 a month for health insurance.

But let’s say I had been able to pay COBRA after I was laid off in 2007 - at $987 a month, by the way. COBRA only lasts 18 months. While I have worked in the intervening time not one of those jobs has even offered health insurance at all, which means by now my COBRA would have run out, leaving me without insurance. But WAIT! you say! Get private insurance! Um… m’kay… last time we looked into that we were quoted $1200/month premium (pre-existing conditions are such a bitch). That exceeds our gross income for most months. Explain to me just HOW in the hell I am supposed to cough up $1200 a month when I don’t make $1200 a month? No, we’re not officially denied insurance but essentially that is what is happening. It has nothing to do with responsibility and everything to do with lack of money and being priced out of the market.

As it happens, the state I live in subsidizes insurance premiums for those like my family who simply can’t pay for them no matter how responsible we are because it’s simply too much money compared to our incomes. I pay a share based on my income (so if my financial situation improves I pay more) and I don’t feel a bit guilty because all the years that I had a higher income I paid my taxes and voted to have a social safety net. I don’t worry and fret that someone else in the program might be “irresponsible” or have a sense of “entitlement” because I’m not that sort of judgmental knee-jerking “all poor people are guilty of irresponsibility until proven otherwise” person.

@curlcoat

Hell, I’m on SSDI myself, tho I managed to make it to 51 before I had to give up working. Haven’t had to make the Medicare decision yet…

So… you’re not working and collecting SSDI and yet have the gall to state that MOST people on the program are freeloaders? You don’t see anything at all hypocritical in that statement? I’m working my butt off trying to support too people while living under the poverty line - sorry, your statements followed by “I’m on SSDI” just really rub me the wrong way.

[curlcoat]

@Broomstick

Funny - my experience was the exact opposite. Mom was on Medicare for nearly 30 years before she died, oddly enough we had FAR fewer problems than we ever had with private insurance.

I am quite sure, as an insurance claims processor, I saw far more Medicare claims than you did.

Yes, we know your first assumption is that anyone who isn’t doing as well as you is an irresponsible lazy jerk. You’ve made that abundantly clear in prior threads.

Way to sidestep having to back up your claim…

Yep, that is ONE reason - administrative costs for medical insurance is about 12-20% (it varies by company) and for single-payer systems it’s around 4-6%. Saving 6-16% on a multi-billions dollar cost is a good thing, isn’t it?

You are assuming that the US government would be able to administrate it as efficiently as other countries do. Since they couldn’t do it with Medicare or Medicaid…

See what I’m mean? “I’m on dial up so I won’t look at it”. Your assumptions are wrong, curlcoat, it’s a short article, and it should be no problem to look at with dial-up - heck, it comes up faster than the Straight Dope.

Please enlighten me as to what was wrong about my assumption on that article.

What if a person who is living within his or her means doesn’t have $700 a month to spend on COBRA? I owe no one any money, I live within my means, and theres no way in hell right now that I could shell out $700 a month for health insurance.

The $700 was for two people, for a rather good policy. You can get insurance for far less than that.

But let’s say I had been able to pay COBRA after I was laid off in 2007 - at $987 a month, by the way. COBRA only lasts 18 months. While I have worked in the intervening time not one of those jobs has even offered health insurance at all, which means by now my COBRA would have run out, leaving me without insurance. But WAIT! you say! Get private insurance! Um… m’kay… last time we looked into that we were quoted $1200/month premium

You didn’t try very hard, did you? Both Blue Cross and Kaiser provide individual policies for far less than that. Of course then you go on to say this…

As it happens, the state I live in subsidizes insurance premiums

And you are bitching. What the hell are you bitching about? You have insurance!

And for all of your whining? Where does this prove that millions of US citizens are in the same boat? This assuming that what you say is true and you are not failing to include past irresponsibilities.

So… you’re not working and collecting SSDI and yet have the gall to state that MOST people on the program are freeloaders?

Uh, where did I say that folks on SSDI are freeloaders?

You don’t see anything at all hypocritical in that statement? I’m working my butt off trying to support too people while living under the poverty line - sorry, your statements followed by “I’m on SSDI” just really rub me the wrong way.

Too bad, don’t care. I paid into SSDI for decades and now cannot work. I was born under that poverty line and lived under it for a very long time - I’m not going back to it just because you think I shouldn’t get my SS payments back.

[Broomstick]

@curlcoat

I am quite sure, as an insurance claims processor, I saw far more Medicare claims than you did.

I had a job where I billed Medicare and Medicaid for a clinic on behalf of about 1200 patients a year. I still don’t see where either of those programs is such a problem

You are assuming that the US government would be able to administrate it as efficiently as other countries do. Since they couldn’t do it with Medicare or Medicaid…

Yes, I DO assume that the US government is at least as competent as the government of any other country, and I have yet to see evidence that either Medicare or Medicaid is the trainwreck you claim them to be. I have not see it in caring for my parents. I have not seen it when involved in billing for a clinic. You have provided zero evidence beyond anecdote.

Please enlighten me as to what was wrong about my assumption on that article.

Read it self yourself, lazybones - that was my POINT, even on dial-up there’s no reason on God’s green earth you can’t read it yourself.

The $700 was for two people, for a rather good policy. You can get insurance for far less than that.

No, you cannot, not if one party was born with spina bifida and now has diabetes. That’s too many pre-existing conditions. In comparison, my allergies and asthma are small potatoes. Please do not tell me it is possible to find even a BAD policy for less than that for my husband when I have tried repeatedly and found nothing that costs less than $1,000 a month.

You didn’t try very hard, did you? Both Blue Cross and Kaiser provide individual policies for far less than that.

Not with my husband’s pre-existing conditions, no they do not.

And you are bitching. What the hell are you bitching about? You have insurance!

So that makes it all better and I can just forget about everyone else? Unlike you, I have empathy and compassion for the rest of the world who doesn’t have it as good as I do. My state is the ONLY state in the US that offers that particular subsidized insurance program. If we lived in any other state we would have NO insurance. That means if I receive a job offer elsewhere I potentially have to choose between more income and no insurance or less income and insurance. Not to mention I actually give a damn about people who might be in the same boat I was, but haven’t found safe harbor.

And for all of your whining? Where does this prove that millions of US citizens are in the same boat? This assuming that what you say is true and you are not failing to include past irresponsibilities.

Ah, yes - imply once again that because I am poor I am not only irresponsible but, hey, maybe I’m lying, too. You are one nasty piece of work, curlcoat, that is clearly an ad homineum attack. But, hey, anything is better than admitting you just might be wrong on an issue.

I got out of debt within 10 years of college, including paying off all student loans on time. I have never missed a car payment. I have been late on the rent on two occasions when there was sudden death in the family, but paid it in full, along with late penalty, within two weeks of the due date. I have never had a bill sent to collections. Even with my minimal employment my credit rating is still over 800. I’m sorry - what here indicates “irresponsibility”? The fact I’m poor? Because as far as I can see that’s the only criteria you are using - I don’t have as much money as you, therefore I must be irresponsible. :rolleyes:

Too bad, don’t care. I paid into SSDI for decades and now cannot work. I was born under that poverty line and lived under it for a very long time - I’m not going back to it just because you think I shouldn’t get my SS payments back.

No, you see, that’s where you and I are different. I believe anyone who meets the criteria for a government program should be allowed on it without pre-judgment. You, on the other hand, want not only means testing but morals testing.

[Fear_Itself]

@curlcoat

(Plus, I am still not interested in having to pay for insurance for those millions that can’t be bothered to buy it for themselves.)

Surprise! You already are:

Americans with health insurance pay a substantial “hidden health tax” that covers health care for those without insurance, according to a report released Thursday by the advocacy group Families USA.

Each year, the average family with health insurance pays out an extra $1,000 a year and the average person with private coverage forks out an extra $370 in premiums to pay for health care for the uninsured, the Associated Press reported.

In 2008, uninsured people received $116 billion in health care from doctors, hospitals and other providers, Families USA said. About 37 percent of that amount was paid for by uninsured patients, and another 26 percent was paid for by government programs and charities. The remainder, about $43 billion, was covered by private insurance premiums paid by individuals and businesses.

Socialized medicine: Taxed if you do, taxed if you don’t. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@curlcoat

Logically then, we should come up with a way to make billing universal and easier. Instead of just uprooting and changing everything.

I certainly agree with this - it would be a good start, and then more could be done if needed/desired.

I suspect that we are more in agreement than not. I am a bit sensitive about the “evils” of single payer (or socialized) medicine.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@Fear_Itself

Surprise! You already are.

Americans with health insurance pay a substantial “hidden health tax” that covers health care for those without insurance, according to a report released Thursday by the advocacy group Families USA.

Each year, the average family with health insurance pays out an extra $1,000 a year and the average person with private coverage forks out an extra $370 in premiums to pay for health care for the uninsured, the Associated Press reported.

In 2008, uninsured people received $116 billion in health care from doctors, hospitals and other providers, Families USA said. About 37 percent of that amount was paid for by uninsured patients, and another 26 percent was paid for by government programs and charities. The remainder, about $43 billion, was covered by private insurance premiums paid by individuals and businesses.

Wow! That’s an amazing figure. Just to compare costs, in British Columbia, the Medical Services Plan (MSP) premiums (single payer government insurance) are as follows (converted to $US at current rate of $0.86)

Single $557/year
Couple $990/year
Family 3 or more $1114/year

This covers doctors visits, hospital visits, clinic visits, tests, etc. But not prescription drugs. (there is a FairPharmacare subsidy program for low income citizens)

There are MSP subsidies on a sliding scale if your income is below $28,000/year, topping out at 100% subsidy if you are making less than $20,000/year.

So it looks like I am paying $114 US /year more for healthcare compared to the equivalent family in the United States. But wait. The cite above says 26 percent of the $116 Billion was paid for by government programs and charities. Where does this come from? Your taxes and donations of course. Then, you poor suckers have to pay for private health insurance ON TOP OF THIS!??

(FTR, I would be pretty happy to pay an extra $114/year to cover anyone who needs it, even if they did make bad choices at some point in their lives, and/or are irresponsible.)

[Fear_Itself]

@Euphonious_Polemic

Then, you poor suckers have to pay for private health insurance ON TOP OF THIS!??

Sucks to be us. And they raise my health insurance premium a minimum of 10% per year.

[Cemetery_Savior]

I’ve always had an issue with the “46 million uninsured” number the press throws around. Has anyone ever seen a itemized breakout of these people? I suspect that there are substantial sections of that gross number that don’t fit people’s idea of the uninsured.

One of the issues in dealing with private insurance is the fact that they’re regulated (and legally mandated) on a state level (NOT federal). In the State of IL:
[EMAIL=“http://app.idph.state.il.us/iphi/docs/Lightner%20Overview.pdf”]http://app.idph.state.il.us/iphi/docs/Lightner%20Overview.pdf

One other good idea (instead of scrapping the Private system and implementing a Orwellian Single-Payor) woudl be to loosen Association rules. Most insurance companies will not write Associations, as they tend to be sinkholes of adverse selection (poor risk). If the government could support the writing of these types of groups, a good deal of those uninsured could be taken from the rolls. Uninsured “A” could go to Sam’s Club (e.g.) and enroll in a large organization that has powers of size for negotiation.

Mirroring Canada (tiny relative population and system) or France isn’t the answer.

FWIW, I’m not a Limbee (assuming that’s slang for a Limbaugh supporter), a Republican, or anything else rightist. I’m a pragmatist who tries to avoid heavy marketing campaigns. Just because Democrats are telling you it’s wonderful doesn’t make it a truism. Do the homework, take time to really know the topic, and then offer an opinion.

-Cem

[Fear_Itself]

@Cemetery_Savior

I’ve always had an issue with the “46 million uninsured” number the press throws around. Has anyone ever seen a itemized breakout of these people? I suspect that there are substantial sections of that gross number that don’t fit people’s idea of the uninsured.

I don’t understand the basis for your skepticism. You believe that substantial numbers of them actually have insurance, and are being intentionally misreported?

The data from the 2007 Census (PDF, Appendix C, page 59) uses the standard that counts all the uninsured at a specific point during the year, yielding 45.6 million people who had no insurance at the same point in 2007. Other estimates use standards measuring those uninsured for the whole year (considerably less), or those uninsured at any time during the year (considerably more). The 45.6 million figure seems to be the most useful, as it is a snapshot in time of how many are uninsured.

I don’t see how you can break it down any further. I don’t know where you get your suspicions that “substantial sections” of that number are misreported as uninsured; I think the burden is now on you to show some evidence of misreporting.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

Originally Posted by Cemetery Savior
I’ve always had an issue with the “46 million uninsured” number the press throws around. Has anyone ever seen a itemized breakout of these people? I suspect that there are substantial sections of that gross number that don’t fit people’s idea of the uninsured.

Or is your point that many of the 46 million uninsured are not stereotypical unemployed lazy bums? Is your theory that some of them are hard working people that make good money, but do not have employer insurance, and cannot afford insurance due to no fault of their own (and thus do not fit people’s idea of the uninsured)?

[Fear_Itself]

@Fear_Itself

I don’t see how you can break it down any further.

I will note that the 2007 Census data is broken down by race and age, but that doesn’t seem particularly relevant in judging the validity of the estimate of the uninsured.

[Voyager]

@Euphonious_Polemic

Wow! That’s an amazing figure. Just to compare costs, in British Columbia, the Medical Services Plan (MSP) premiums (single payer government insurance) are as follows (converted to $US at current rate of $0.86)

Single $557/year
Couple $990/year
Family 3 or more $1114/year

This covers doctors visits, hospital visits, clinic visits, tests, etc. But not prescription drugs. (there is a FairPharmacare subsidy program for low income citizens)

There are MSP subsidies on a sliding scale if your income is below $28,000/year, topping out at 100% subsidy if you are making less than $20,000/year.

So it looks like I am paying $114 US /year more for healthcare compared to the equivalent family in the United States. But wait. The cite above says 26 percent of the $116 Billion was paid for by government programs and charities. Where does this come from? Your taxes and donations of course. Then, you poor suckers have to pay for private health insurance ON TOP OF THIS!??

(FTR, I would be pretty happy to pay an extra $114/year to cover anyone who needs it, even if they did make bad choices at some point in their lives, and/or are irresponsible.)

Your calculations are a bit off. The $1,000 a year is what we pay for the uninsured. Most of us pay a lot more for that for our own insurance. In fact, I believe the per capita cost of government spending on health care is greater than yours, and then we have to add in the massive cost of private spending for healthcare.

BTW, my daughter, as a foreigner, paid slightly more for health insurance in Germany than the single rate you gave. We felt it was quite a bargain.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Euphonious_Polemic

Or is your point that many of the 46 million uninsured are not stereotypical unemployed lazy bums? Is your theory that some of them are hard working people that make good money, but do not have employer insurance, and cannot afford insurance due to no fault of their own (and thus do not fit people’s idea of the uninsured)?

There is a sizeable portion of that 46 million- as many as half- who don’t have employer-provided insurance but don’t want to pay for private insurance, even though they could afford it.

Of course, that 46 million figure doesn’t count people who are effectively uninsured- those who have health insurance which is going to deny their first major claim, a number perhaps even larger all by itself.

[curlcoat]

@Broomstick

I had a job where I billed Medicare and Medicaid for a clinic on behalf of about 1200 patients a year. I still don’t see where either of those programs is such a problem

Medicaid is usually not a problem for the provider - their issues are elsewhere. If you never had much trouble with Medicare doing such things as denying claims because they came out of order, your clinic was very unique.

Yes, I DO assume that the US government is at least as competent as the government of any other country, and I have yet to see evidence that either Medicare or Medicaid is the trainwreck you claim them to be. I have not see it in caring for my parents. I have not seen it when involved in billing for a clinic. You have provided zero evidence beyond anecdote.

Well, since it’s been over 10 years since Medicare started going private, it’s kind of hard to dig up cites on that, eh?

Read it self yourself, lazybones - that was my POINT, even on dial-up there’s no reason on God’s green earth you can’t read it yourself.

I did read it, which is why I am asking you what is wrong with what I posted about it. As for being lazy - I don’t see why I should spend 20 minutes waiting for something to load just to make you happy.

No, you cannot, not if one party was born with spina bifida and now has diabetes. That’s too many pre-existing conditions. In comparison, my allergies and asthma are small potatoes. Please do not tell me it is possible to find even a BAD policy for less than that for my husband when I have tried repeatedly and found nothing that costs less than $1,000 a month.

Where did I say that you were going to be able to find a private policy that will cover pre-existing conditions?

So that makes it all better and I can just forget about everyone else? Unlike you, I have empathy and compassion for the rest of the world who doesn’t have it as good as I do.

Give me a break with the holier than thou attitude. You by your own admission are in no position to pay to cover all of the those who are uninsured in this country, yet you have no problem EXPECTING that I and others like me will. And that is the whole problem right there - the expectation that someone will come along and pay to take care of you, whether you deserve it or not, whether you have earned it or not, whether you have been at all responsible for yourself in the past or not.

I have no idea whether or not you deserve help, but I do know that there are many many people out there with severe entitlement attitudes that expect and demand that I pay their way. And I am what with MediCal, DentiCal, welfare, subsidized housing, ADC and now all those folks that were too dumb or too entitled to realize that they really couldn’t afford to buy a house. Not to mention all of these wars or police actions or whatever they are. We can’t afford to take on any more, so some of these people are going to have to start being responsible for themselves.

Ah, yes - imply once again that because I am poor I am not only irresponsible but, hey, maybe I’m lying, too. You are one nasty piece of work, curlcoat, that is clearly an ad homineum attack. But, hey, anything is better than admitting you just might be wrong on an issue.

Honey, if you are sensitive about your position in life, that is your problem not mine. All I said was assuming ou are not failing to include past irresponsibilities because, obviously, I have no way of knowing that do I?

No, you see, that’s where you and I are different. I believe anyone who meets the criteria for a government program should be allowed on it without pre-judgment.

Except when you pre-judged me all over the place…

[curlcoat]

@Fear_Itself

Surprise! You already are:Socialized medicine: Taxed if you do, taxed if you don’t. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.

Yeah I know - I just don’t want to have to add millions more people to that burden.

[Fear_Itself]

@curlcoat

Yeah I know - I just don’t want to have to add millions more people to that burden.

You don’t get it; you are already paying for all 46 million. There are no more.

[curlcoat]

@Euphonious_Polemic

I certainly agree with this - it would be a good start, and then more could be done if needed/desired.

I suspect that we are more in agreement than not. I am a bit sensitive about the “evils” of single payer (or socialized) medicine.

I don’t think I have an issue with socialized medicine per se, tho I do hear many stories of treatment delayed or not given from folks in Canada and the UK. My issue is with handing anything at all over to the government and to be expected once again to pay taxes to support the rest of the country. The call for a UHC in the US isn’t so much because there is a problem with insurance/healthcare here, it is because there are all these people that do not (for whatever reason) have insurance but don’t qualify for Medicaid. Apparently, the only solution for that is for me to pay for it AND to turn the whole insurance/healthcare situation upside down.

I already pay extra for my insurance policy to subsidize other people, but at least those people are also paying premiums at more or less the same rate I am.

[Fear_Itself]

@curlcoat

I already pay extra for my insurance policy to subsidize other people, but at least those people are also paying premiums at more or less the same rate I am.

No, you pay extra on your premium for people who pay nothing at all, because they have no insurance.

[curlcoat]

@Fear_Itself

I don’t understand the basis for your skepticism. You believe that substantial numbers of them actually have insurance, and are being intentionally misreported?

I’m not Cemetery Savior but the problem I have with it (other than just not trusting the press) is the assumption that all of those people are uninsured because the can’t get insurance. Not because they have chosen to do other things with their money, not because they are young and don’t understand the value of being insured, etc. No, the assumption is being made that all of them cannot get it because they don’t make enough money to pay for food, rent and insurance so therefore we need to have a UHC here.

[Fear_Itself]

@curlcoat

I’m not Cemetery Savior but the problem I have with it (other than just not trusting the press) is the assumption that all of those people are uninsured because the can’t get insurance. Not because they have chosen to do other things with their money, not because they are young and don’t understand the value of being insured, etc.

Do you have any evidence this is the case? Or is it just common knowledge?