# Insurance Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 30, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367 "2018-04-30T18:41:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Missy2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Missy2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Missy2U)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/1 "2018-04-30T18:41:50Z")
Can someone please explain to me what the result would be based on the following scenario? Let’s say I have a very rare coin. Being the smart person I am, I have it insured. Then let’s say that someone steals it from me. I get reimbursed per my insurance policy and life goes on. Now, let’s say that the coin has, years later, ended up in a garage sale and some guy buys it and finds out it is very valuable. Does the guy who bought it at the garage sale get to keep it since the insurance company paid the original owner for it? (That was the outcome on an episode of Pawn Stars that my husband and I watched.) OR Does it actually go back to the insurance company since they paid the claim to the original owner? Thanks for any insight you can give. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/2 "2018-04-30T19:43:51Z")
If the second guy can be considered a [bona fide purchaser](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser), then the coin is rightfully his, regardless of whether it was stolen or not, and regardless whether you had it insured or not. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/3 "2018-04-30T20:08:33Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > If the second guy can be considered a [bona fide purchaser](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser), then the coin is rightfully his, regardless of whether it was stolen or not, and regardless whether you had it insured or not. Really? Could you point to a relevant state law that codifies that (especially for personal non-real property)? Because wikipedia also says this ([Nemo dat quod non habet - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_dat_quod_non_habet)): > [@](#): > > Nemo dat quod non habet, literally meaning “no one gives what he doesn’t have” is a legal rule that states that the purchase of a possession from someone who has no ownership right to it also denies the purchaser any ownership title. > […] > In American law, a bona fide purchaser who unknowingly purchases and subsequently sells stolen goods will, at common law, be held liable in trover for the full market value of those goods as of the date of conversion. Since the true owner retains legal title, the seller is liable even in a chain of successive bona fide purchasers (i.e., the true owner can successfully sue the fifth bona fide purchaser in trover). Now, I didn’t go to law-talking guy college, but to me, that says the person who bought stolen property doesn’t get to keep it, even if they didn’t know it was stolen. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/4 "2018-04-30T20:19:16Z")
The company that paid off on a fire I had told me they do not insure record collections or coins because they are difficult to value. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/5 "2018-04-30T21:00:05Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Really? Could you point to a relevant state law that codifies that (especially for personal non-real property)? UCC 2-403 [http://rakowerlaw.com/pdf/Yang-NYLitigator-Spring-2014-Void-Versus-Voidable-Contracts.pdf](http://rakowerlaw.com/pdf/Yang-NYLitigator-Spring-2014-Void-Versus-Voidable-Contracts.pdf) > [@](#): > > UCC § 2-403(2) > UCC § 2-403(2) provides that a “buyer in [the] > ordinary course of business” may receive valid title to > goods when the goods are purchased from “a merchant > who deals in goods of that kind.” UCC § 2-104(1) defines > merchant as, > a person who deals in goods of the kind > or otherwise by his occupation holds > himself out as having knowledge or > skill peculiar to the practices or goods > involved in the transaction or to whom > such knowledge or skill may be attributed > by his employment of an agent or > broker or other intermediary who by his > occupation holds himself out as having > such knowledge or skill. > Courts in New York have held that both the original > owner and the buyer in the ordinary course must be > aware that the merchant deals in goods of that kind in > order for the protections of UCC § 2-403(2) to apply.42 > In Porter v. Wentz, for example, the defendant was not > entitled to the protections of UCC § 2-403(2), where he > purchased a painting from a person who was not an art > dealer but rather a delicatessen employee.43 > A “buyer in [the] ordinary course” is a type of a good faith > purchaser—one that purchases goods from a person > whose business it is to deal in goods of that kind.44 As > defined under UCC § 1-201(9), a “buyer in [the] ordinary > course of business” is > a person that buys goods in good faith, > without knowledge that the sale violates > the rights of another person in the goods, > and in the ordinary course from a person, > other than a pawnbroker, in the business > of selling goods of that kind. A person > buys goods in the ordinary course if the > sale to the person comports with the > usual or customary practices in the kind > of business in which the seller is engaged > or with the seller’s own usual or customary > practices. > Courts have held that buyers are not entitled to > protection under UCC § 2-403(2) if there are “warning > signs” or “red fl ags” surrounding the transaction and the > buyer moves forward with the sale without conducting > further due diligence.45 “Examples of such warning signs > include a purchase price that is obviously below market, > a sales procedure that differed from previous transactions > between the two parties, or any other ‘reason to doubt the > seller’s ownership of the [goods].’”46 Moreover, in cases > where the buyer is a merchant, courts have imposed a > higher standard of good-faith, defi ned as “honesty in fact > and the observance of reasonable commercial standards > of fair dealing in the trade[,]”47 and have required that the > buyer take additional steps to verify the true owner of the > goods to receive protection under UCC § 2-403(2).48 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/6 "2018-04-30T21:21:11Z")
It isn’t a law, they just chose not to cover them in their homeowner’s policy. ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/7 "2018-04-30T21:47:25Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > UCC 2-403 > > [http://rakowerlaw.com/pdf/Yang-NYLitigator-Spring-2014-Void-Versus-Voidable-Contracts.pdf](http://rakowerlaw.com/pdf/Yang-NYLitigator-Spring-2014-Void-Versus-Voidable-Contracts.pdf) The way I read UCC 2-403, the buyer at a yard sale doesn’t get any protection because the person holding a yard sale isn’t “a merchant who deals in goods of that kind." It would have to come from a shop that sells rare coins. Similar problem for the TV show story because UCC 2-403 specifically exempts pawn shops. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/8 "2018-04-30T21:57:57Z")
I may be mis-remembering but I recall stories of pilfered art that has to be returned to the original owner…even if it is many decades later and the current owner didn’t know it was stolen art. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/9 "2018-04-30T23:44:49Z")
Just wondering how anyone could prove that the coin sold at that yard sale was the same one as that stolen from you? Coins don’t have serial numbers, they all started out looking identical, and the wear on them occurs in pretty standard ways. ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/10 "2018-05-01T17:38:10Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Just wondering how anyone could prove that the coin sold at that yard sale was the same one as that stolen from you? > > Coins don’t have serial numbers, they all started out looking identical, and the wear on them occurs in pretty standard ways. I think this is the obvious answer. It is not distinguishable from any other similar coin. But aside from that, why would anything you bought at a yard sale come to the attention of some insurance company to begin with? Dennis ---
**Author:** ![Missy2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Missy2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Missy2U)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/11 "2018-05-01T17:53:33Z")
Thanks, everyone! On my phone, so I’ll fill in more answers when I get to my laptop. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/12 "2018-05-01T18:03:46Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I may be mis-remembering but I recall stories of pilfered art that has to be returned to the original owner…even if it is many decades later and the current owner didn’t know it was stolen art. In Europe I believe they passed some special laws for looted Nazi art. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/13 "2018-05-01T19:42:48Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > UCC 2-403 > [http://rakowerlaw.com/pdf/Yang-NYLitigator-Spring-2014-Void-Versus-Voidable-Contracts.pdf](http://rakowerlaw.com/pdf/Yang-NYLitigator-Spring-2014-Void-Versus-Voidable-Contracts.pdf) I think you stopped reading a little too soon. You quoted from a section discussing fraud (including things we might not really think of as fraud, such as bounced checks to a supplier, etc.). But the next section of the linked article says (footnotes removed by me): > [@](#): > > **C. Theft** > As opposed to contracts for the sale of goods procured by economic duress and fraud, contracts for the sale of stolen goods are void. Whereas fraud, economic duress, and theft all involve a wrongful act to procure goods, theft differs because there is no contract and no delivery of the goods with intent to pass title and complete the sale. > > At common law, a thief acquires no title to stolen goods and therefore passes no title to a good-faith purchaser of those goods. Because no title can pass, a good-faith purchaser must, upon demand, return the goods purchased to the rightful owner. If the good-faith purchaser refuses, then the rightful owner may initiate a replevin action seeking the return of his or her goods. So, a good-faith purchaser does not in fact get to keep stolen property, in general. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/14 "2018-05-01T20:03:10Z")
I do want to point out that very few rare coins are unique, so proving that her coin is the one that that is being sold at the garage sale would be very hard to do. However, going back to the OP: assuming something is known to be stolen, does it revert to the Insurance company or to the original owner? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/15 "2018-05-01T20:38:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > However, going back to the OP: assuming something is known to be stolen, does it revert to the Insurance company or to the original owner? When an insurance company pays out on stolen property, they now own it should it be recovered. You may be given the option to purchase it back, or return the payout and take the item. Imagine if this wasn’t the case; insurance fraud would be a license to print money. > **[What Happens If You Get Insurance Money For Stolen Item Later Returned?](https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/what-happens-if-you-get-insurance-money-for-stolen-item-later-returned/)** > > What if you get insurance money for a stolen item that later is located and returned to you? > **[What to Do If a Watch is Returned After the Insurance Claim is Paid?](https://pocketsense.com/do-after-insurance-claim-paid-5712814.html)** > > What to Do If a Watch is Returned After the Insurance Claim is Paid?. Watches and jewelry items are common targets of theft out of the home, from your desk at work or your car. If a watch is valuable, such as an antique or a Rolex, you may end up... ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/16 "2018-05-02T00:45:45Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Just wondering how anyone could prove that the coin sold at that yard sale was the same one as that stolen from you? > > Coins don’t have serial numbers, they all started out looking identical, and the wear on them occurs in pretty standard ways. Many, if not most, rare coins are certified, enclosed in sealed plastic “slabs” that are individually numbered. Certification shows the coin is authentic, and that its grade meets some standard. It costs about $40 to get a coin certified, so it’s only worth it for coins whose value varies significantly depending on its grade. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/17 "2018-05-02T02:18:19Z")
> [@JohnGalt](#): > > Many, if not most, rare coins are certified, enclosed in sealed plastic “slabs” that are individually numbered. Certification shows the coin is authentic, and that its grade meets some standard. It costs about $40 to get a coin certified, so it’s only worth it for coins whose value varies significantly depending on its grade. But that doesn’t sound like the kind of coin that would 'end up at a garage sale", like in the OP. Presumably, there would also be paperwork on this coin, and everyone (including the heirs of the owner) would recognize it as something having some value. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/18 "2018-05-02T16:25:07Z")
Relevant [previous thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=295579). > [@Telemark](#): > > When an insurance company pays out on stolen property, they now own it should it be recovered. You may be given the option to purchase it back, or return the payout and take the item. Imagine if this wasn’t the case; insurance fraud would be a license to print money. > > [What Happens If You Get Insurance Money For Stolen Item Later Returned? - CBS Philadelphia](http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2015/08/11/what-happens-if-you-get-insurance-money-for-stolen-item-later-returned/) > > [What to Do If a Watch is Returned After the Insurance Claim is Paid? | Pocketsense](https://pocketsense.com/do-after-insurance-claim-paid-5712814.html) Generally speaking, insurance policies contain a provision for “right of salvage,” meaning that any insured item on which the policy pays for a total loss becomes the property of the insurer if recovered. As a matter of fact, this issue hardly ever arises. In fact, I wasn’t able to find a single appellate case anywhere in the US where it was addressed (other than disputes between insurers and maritime salvage claimants). ---
**Author:** ![Missy2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Missy2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Missy2U)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/19 "2018-05-02T16:46:16Z")
Ok, what started this all was an episode of Pawn Stars. Rick had purchased a very old shekel from some guy who said he got it in a box of stuff he bought at a garage sale. The police came to the pawn shop and took it as it was part of some stolen property. They brought it back to the store though, later in the show, saying that the insurance had paid out to the owner so it belonged to Rick. This was in Las Vegas. It’s also a stupid TV show so we didn’t know if that was actually what would really happen or not. All in all, we really didn’t care too much and forgot about it until recently. In the past week or so, we heard a story about a guy who found out that a rare coin he had been told was fake was, in fact, REAL and worth a ton of money. Quotes from the stories we heard on TV (on actual News shows - not Pawn Stars) said it was like finding a fortune when you bought something at a garage sale. So, being that we were drinking and talking about this (nothing good tends to come of that scenario), we wondered if a hypothetical guy bought an item that had previously been stolen (but insured and insurance paid the original owner) at a garage sale and it turned out to be very, very valuable, would hypothetical guy get to keep it or would the insurance company get it back? This bothered my husband more than myself because if the insurance company DOES get it back in reality, that meant that Pawn Stars lied to him. I told you that no good tends to come out of scenarios where we are drinking, talking and watching bad TV. Thanks for the replies, everyone! ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367/20 "2018-05-02T18:51:24Z")
> [@Missy2U](#): > > This bothered my husband more than myself because if the insurance company DOES get it back in reality, that meant that Pawn Stars lied to him. I think it’s time someone had “the talk” with your husband. You know, the one about TV and ‘reality’. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/insurance-question/813367.md?page=2)