# Intellectually, What Does Islam Offer The West? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949 "2015-07-12T15:22:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/21 "2015-07-12T19:01:58Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Here in the USA, if you put a cross in a public park or a Star of David on a memorial, or let the government fund a small number of religious schools, then certain persons start getting the vapors and fainting at the encroachment of theocracy. If we applied the same standard to the Islamic world, I imagine we would find a lot more theocracies. While we were nation-building in Iraq and Afghanistan, both countries wrote constitutions explicitly stating a unique role for Islam. > > Justice Anthony Kennedy and many others assure us that there’s no possible reason to not give gay couples marriage licenses, other than religious bigotry. How many Islamic countries give marriage licenses to gay couples? How many even allow gay sex? > > There are Muslims concerned about human rights; okay, but is their definition of human rights as good as America’s or Europe’s. Would we benefit from switching to the Islamic understanding of human rights? To add to what Miller said, lots, possibly even the majority of western countries don’t believe in seperation of church and state, or at least not to the extent the U.S. does. You mentioned “the government funding of religious schools” which is done in Canada, Australia, the UK, and IIRC New Zealand. And let’s not even bring up Israel which is certainly part of the West. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/22 "2015-07-12T20:19:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Tell that to Turkey. They don’t seem to have gotten the memo. Turkey is a marginally decent place to live because they rejected Islamic ideals and implemented Western government and politics, enforced with frequent military coups. If the best Muslim majority country is also the most Western, that speaks very poorly about the value of Islam as a pro-civilization force or a way of life. > [@Miller](#): > > List of female Muslim heads of state, 20th & 21st Centuries only, and excluding royalty: > > Atifete Jahjaga - President of Kosovo > Benazir Bhutto - Prime Minister of Pakistan > Khaleda Zia - Prime Minister of Bangladesh > Megawati Sukarnoputri - President of Indonesia > Sheikh Hasina Wazed - Prime Minister of Bangladesh > Tansu Ciller - Prime Minister of Turkey > > List of female American heads of state, any century: > > … let me get back to you next year. You’re comparing 49 Muslim majority countries to just a single Western nation. What’s more, the country chosen, the United States, was cherrypicked so as to have no female presidents. Moreover, your analysis doesn’t account for the greater instability of Islamic nations and the consequent greater total number of heads of government. Finally you falsely assume that the number of female heads of state is a good measure of the country’s attitude towards women. I[f we look at actual facts](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/09/20/best-and-worst-countries-for-women-the-full-list.html), we find unsurprisingly that Western nations are the best places in the world for women, with muslim and African nations rounding out the bottom of the list. Even by the standards of debate on SDMB, this was an awful and shoddy argument. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > “Several”? Out of the 60 plus countries in the World that could be called “Muslim” the only one I can say for sure is ruled by Salafis is Saudi Arabia and possibly Sudan(theocracy but not sure if it could be called Salafist). I suppose you could consider a few of the Emirates though that would be a stretch. Afghanistan under the Taliban was an example but that was the past(at least for now) and Iran is a theocracy but certainly not a Salafist one. > > That is simply racist claptrap and not even terribly original racist claptrap. The Know-Nothings of the 19th Century said the same about the Irish and people in the early 20th Century said the same about Southern and a Eastern Europeans. > > They were wrong and so are you. You may be right that only a small number of muslim nations are explicitly Wahhabi, but the overarching point, that muslim nations are filled with antediluvian reactionaries, is still very valid. [I’ve noticed a trend](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18466626&postcount=10) of you calling my arguments “bigoted claptrap” when you want to dismiss them, but don’t want to deal with them on the merits. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/23 "2015-07-12T20:38:53Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The Bible is easily the biggest contributor to the English language of any book, whether it’s idioms, well known parables, allusions, or poetry. I’m not even sure what would be close – Shakespeare, maybe? So I bristle when my fellow atheists try to say it’s useless. Extra irony points if they unknowingly use a Biblical phrase while doing so. > > I’m ignorant of the Koran. Never read it, seen some selected quotes but usually by someone with an axe to grind (either for or against). Does it have interesting phrases or parables to offer the English language? Can anyone name parts of the Koran worth reading from that perspective? Yes. It’s a small book, to begin with, so you could read it in a day or two. It isn’t quite as long as the Book of Psalms in the Bible. Like Psalms, its a big mixture of praise for God, poetry extolling peace and love, verses celebrating war and massacre and conquest, and then back to praise for God again. Quite a grab-bag of themes. It is a pastime in Christianity to find a verse in Psalms that underlines what point you’re trying to make. The same game applies very nicely to the Koran. You can nearly always find a verse supporting you, whether you’re arguing for peace or war, mercy or vengeance, love or hate. It’s worth reading, and better worth reading alongside a study guide, as it is a really mixed-up book – they shuffled the order of the verses! There actually are underlying cohesive concepts: part of it was written during time of war, and part during time of peace. Knowing which helps comprehend the whole. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/24 "2015-07-12T21:15:09Z")
Islam offers to the West a reminder that the humanist values of secular government and freedom of expression are worth fighting for. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/25 "2015-07-12T21:17:27Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > You may be right that only a small number of muslim nations are explicitly Wahhabi, but the overarching point, that muslim nations are filled with antediluvian reactionaries, is still very valid. No, it’s not. You’re attempting to shift the goal posts. You began by claiming there were “several” Muslim countries run by “Wahhabi” regimes. The actual total is probably more like one out of around 65 countries. As for many Muslim countries having “antediluvian reactionaries”, sure. Third World countries, whether predominantly Christian or Muslim tend to have lots of reactionaries. You’ll notice in Sub-Saharran Africa there’s little difference when it comes to percentage who are “reactionaries” between the Christians and the Muslims. > [@](#): > > I’ve noticed a trend of you calling my arguments “bigoted claptrap” when you want to dismiss them, but don’t want to deal with them on the merits. Really, I don’t even remember you. That said, if you make statements that are “bigoted claptrap”, I will call them “bigoted claptrap.” It’s not a reflection on you, it’s a reflection on your posts. You’ll notice that I didn’t use the phrase “bigoted claptrap” to refer to your rather foolish claims about “Wahhabi reactionaries.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/26 "2015-07-12T22:22:45Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Islam offers to the West a reminder that the humanist values of secular government and freedom of expression are worth fighting for. The same is true, of course, for the Thirty Years War and the English Civil War – both of which helped inspire the U.S. separation of church and state. Islam has no monopoly on the terrors of state-mandated religion. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/27 "2015-07-12T22:28:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Benazir Bhutto - Prime Minister of Pakistan Point of order: daughter of a previous male Prime Minister. > [@](#): > > Megawati Sukarnoputri - President of Indonesia Point of order: related to a previous male head of state (Sukarno) > [@](#): > > Sheikh Hasina Wazed - Prime Minister of Bangladesh Point of order: daughter of a previous male President. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/28 "2015-07-12T22:47:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Point of order: daughter of a previous male President. So what does this mean? We’ve had have a whole slew of male presidents with daughters. Did any of them become presidents? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/29 "2015-07-12T22:49:02Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Point of order: daughter of a previous male Prime Minister. > > Point of order: related to a previous male head of state (Sukarno) > > Point of order: daughter of a previous male President. Er… your point? Miller wasn’t suggesting they were good leaders or even democratically elected or even that said countries had less sexism than the US. Just that several Muslim countries had had female leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/30 "2015-07-12T22:51:19Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The same is true, of course, for the Thirty Years War and the English Civil War – both of which helped inspire the U.S. separation of church and state. > > Islam has no monopoly on the terrors of state-mandated religion. What occurs in the present bears more weight. People tend to forget the lessons of centuries past. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/31 "2015-07-12T22:52:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… your point? > > Miller wasn’t suggesting they were good leaders or even democratically elected or even that said countries had less sexism than the US. Just that several Muslim countries had had female leaders. The implication, of course, that having a female head of state means a country has higher regard for women than the United States. A laughable assertion, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/32 "2015-07-12T22:56:14Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The implication, of course, that having a female head of state means a country has higher regard for women than the United States. > > A laughable assertion, of course. I’ll let Miller speak for himself, but I don’t think that’s what he was saying. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/33 "2015-07-12T22:59:18Z")
Isn’t ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/34 "2015-07-12T23:01:30Z")
Isn’t some of Muslim extremism mostly a reactionary response to the successful ongoing Westernization of its people? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/35 "2015-07-12T23:04:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Intellectually, What Does Islam Offer The West? Well, has anyone come up with something it has to offer? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/36 "2015-07-12T23:34:46Z")
Well, the theory of standard alms paid to the poor on net worth is a good one. I also think the reliance on wealth taxation instead of taxing transactions is probably sound. We can learn from those. But the claims made about the nature of prophecy are a freaking cautionary tale. I am grateful to my youthful Bible study for teaching me that prophets are not perfect, and that any claim that a “Last Prophet” will give us the perfect revelation for all time is laughably wrong. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/37 "2015-07-12T23:36:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The same thing could be said of pretty much any religion at some point in its history. The Sikhs were historically known for their respect of other traditions, and the pre-Christian Romans were sort of theologically promiscuous. They still had enemy sects, but not in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/38 "2015-07-12T23:42:23Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > the pre-Christian Romans were sort of theologically promiscuous. They still had enemy sects, but not in the same way. Did they allow Same Sect Marriage. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/39 "2015-07-13T00:02:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Did you know that in Iran, the state fully funds sex change operations for any citizen that feels they need one? Their record on gay rights is, of course, appalling, but even in Iran, the subject isn’t as black and white as you’d like it to be. And gay sex was illegal (if not often enforced) in several states in the US up until 2003, when the Supreme Court struck down sodomy laws in Lawrence v. Texas. In the decision, three of our most learned and wise justices saw absolutely no problem with criminalizing homosexuality. To be fair, that’s more of a question of transgender rights than gay rights. On the topic of gay rights, while many Muslim states have sodomy laws, not all do. Some that don’t are Mali, Djibouti, Bosnia, Albania, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Jordan. This doesn’t mean that all of these places are particularly tolerant of gays; most of them aren’t. But there are no laws. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/40 "2015-07-13T00:06:57Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So what does this mean? We’ve had have a whole slew of male presidents with daughters. Sorry, I evidently didn’t finish writing that post. Just as royalty are excluded, so these too should be excluded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949.md?page=3)