# Intellectually, What Does Islam Offer The West? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949 "2015-07-12T15:22:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/61 "2015-07-17T21:11:12Z")
Well, I’m glad you tried. Everything you say is also true of the Bible, you know: it’s entirely one-sided. God is the only power, the only truth, the only giver of laws, the only definition of good. That’s what religious texts tend to do: extoll the virtues of their faith, with harsh castigation of dissent. The context is easily available: there are tons (literally!) of books that can explain how the Koran was written, when it was written, the circumstances, and the meaning. (You may have some difficulty selecting one that you can accept as moderate and objective. The same, of course, is true for books that introduce and explain the Bible. Some will be fulminating fire-breathing hyper-fundamentalist creationist dogshit, and some will be reasonable, fair, and educational. Caveat Emptor.) ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/62 "2015-07-19T12:47:49Z")
Believe me, I in no way meant to imply the Christian Bible was any better. Genesis is all about the strength of bargaining and making sure you get the better of the deal, even if it means to manipulate your older brother into trading his birthright for your food. God wants ruthless bastards to lead his people. The Koran does help me understand the mindset of Muslims better if nothing else. There is no compromise. You either side with Allah unquestioningly or you’re the enemy. Yes, some Christians are like that too, but the Koran seems to be a lot more blatant about that. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/63 "2015-07-19T13:08:04Z")
Eh, in practice (like basically all religious stances) it varies. I spent a couple years in a largely Muslim village in West/Central Africa, and the approach was definitely relaxed. People converted back and forth between Christianity and Islam easily, and I heard quite often that it’s different approaches to the same God. Whenever people asked why I was not Muslim, my explanation (“My parents aren’t Muslim”) was immediately accepted and nobody questioned or lectured me. Things like alcohol and even adultery were tolerated. It was a laid back place. Unfortunately, Boko Haram is currently terrorizing the area and doing their best to ruin things. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/64 "2015-07-19T21:29:30Z")
Not always. There is this somewhat accommodating verse that, at least to a degree, suggests coexistence: "Chapter 109: Al-Kafirun The Unbelievers In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. 1 Say: O disbelievers, 2 I serve not what you serve, 3 Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve, 4 Nor shall I serve that which ye serve, 5 Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve. 6 For you is your recompense and for me my recompense." ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/65 "2015-07-20T17:14:06Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > The Muslim world doesn’t accept concepts like feminism, secular government, human rights or democracy, and indeed several Muslim states are ruled under a reactionary Wahhabi mindset. Given your posts here, I very much doubt you accept concents like feminism or secular government, but nobody is questioning your value. > [@Quartz](#): > > Point of order… > [@Quartz](#): > > Sorry, I evidently didn’t finish writing that post. Just as royalty are excluded, so these too should be excluded. Democratically(-ish, in some cases) elected heads of government are excluded if they are related to prior heads of government? Does Maggie Thatcher get excluded because her dad held elective office? Hillary Clinton will probably be the next US president. Will her accomplishment not count because she’s married to a former president? Nepotism knows no borders. Anyway, Bhutto had two brothers, one of whom was a politician (among her most vocal opponents in the Pakistani government). > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > After reading this, I went over to [quran.com](http://quran.com) and read the first couple of chapters. So far, it reads like a one-sided conversation. It’s a fucking holy book. That’s how they’re supposed to read. Nobody signs up for religions where priests say, “this is what god wants, or at least that’s what we think. Nobody is sure, frankly.” ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/66 "2015-07-20T22:09:12Z")
The question consisting, of course, of any religious text’s tolerance of other religions… ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/67 "2015-07-21T14:38:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s a fucking holy book. That’s how they’re supposed to read. Nobody signs up for religions where priests say, “this is what god wants, or at least that’s what we think. Nobody is sure, frankly.” I get that. I’m just voicing slight frustration that this particular fucking holy book starts off with so much pejorative and discourages feedback. At least other fucking holy books I’ve read strive to relay sacred principles and don’t try to hammer worshippers into non-questioning drones. After the initial dressing down, the Koran encourages fighting against anyone who would deny Allah’s word to his worshippers. Then it offers advice on how to handle divorces and property disputes, without any sort of segue. Why was it organized like that? That’s the problem with ancient texts. They weren’t proofread. To interpret them any other way than literally is tantamount to blasphemy. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/68 "2015-07-21T22:48:14Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > . . . Why was it organized like that? . . . One commonplace explanation is that the verses are arranged (roughly) by length as an adjunct to memorization. This is one of the reasons it is wise to read the Koran in parallel with a guide book. (The same is true for the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Bhagavad Gita, the Iliad, the Divine Comedy, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/69 "2015-07-22T05:32:21Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Islam gave us Algebra Then I suppose Christianity gave us gene theory/natural selection, and Judaism granted us the general theory of relativity. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/70 "2015-07-22T18:19:34Z")
You have the to remember as well, the Koran was written by a small group in a relatively short period of time and has been essentially unchanged since it’s inception. The Bible is a collection of writings from many authors spread out over many years and has had more rewrites, translations, and edits than a movie script. And half of it is from another religion altogether, with undesired pieces left out. So it’s going to come off as a more edited and polished piece of literature, if nothing else. Also, there is a reason that most Muslims insist the Koran be memorized and read in the original Arabic - it is a fine piece of Classical Arabic, arranged like poetry to make it easier to memorize and quote. ---
**Author:** ![dudonarrival](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@dudonarrival](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dudonarrival)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/71 "2015-07-27T22:55:09Z")
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are people of the Book, the Judaic Old Testament so by default Islam very much acknowledges other religions. Intellectually Islam provides us with a mass collective input (The Koran Mo was illiterate) bit like a forum that is a more poetic and articulate presentation of the nonsensical monotheistic concept ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/72 "2015-08-06T18:19:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Eh, I’ll give them architectural and artistic vision at least. I don’t know why, but there’s something about the transcendent holy that seems to inspire artists in general and architects in particular. Like, the Louvres is alright (if a bit gaudy) but Notre Dame is something else, y’know ? 🙂 Islamic calligraphy is stunning. Not that that speaks in any way to the value of the faith, but it’s something Muslims can be proud of. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/73 "2015-08-06T18:43:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Did you know that in Iran, the state fully funds sex change operations for any citizen that feels they need one? Their record on gay rights is, of course, appalling, but even in Iran, the subject isn’t as black and white as you’d like it to be. And gay sex was illegal (if not often enforced) in several states in the US up until 2003, when the Supreme Court struck down sodomy laws in Lawrence v. Texas. In the decision, three of our most learned and wise justices saw absolutely no problem with criminalizing homosexuality. Since when did sodomy come to mean only gay sex? The laws outlawed sodomy no matter who practiced it. The SC Justices werent criminalizing homosexuality; they believed that states could outlaw certain behavior. The Justices werent trying to criminalize sodomy in states where it was legal. They werent trying to say that in states where sodomy was illegal that it couldnt be legalized. And in no dark corner of any of their opinions did they try to criminalize homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/74 "2015-08-06T22:58:51Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Islamic calligraphy is stunning. Not that that speaks in any way to the value of the faith, but it’s something Muslims can be proud of. Not being hung from a construction crane is also stunning. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/75 "2015-08-06T23:38:12Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Since when did sodomy come to mean only gay sex? The laws outlawed sodomy no matter who practiced it. The SC Justices werent criminalizing homosexuality; they believed that states could outlaw certain behavior. The Justices werent trying to criminalize sodomy in states where it was legal. They werent trying to say that in states where sodomy was illegal that it couldnt be legalized. And in no dark corner of any of their opinions did they try to criminalize homosexuality. Boy, that’s a whole lot of rebuttals to things I didn’t say. I didn’t say that sodomy meant only gay sex. However, it is, by definition, the only kind of sex gay people can have. So, yeah, laws against sodomy are also laws against gay sex, even though it covers some of the sex acts practiced by straight people. I also didn’t say that the SC tried to outlaw sodomy, I said they didn’t see a problem with it being outlawed. But thanks for trying. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/76 "2015-08-06T23:46:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Boy, that’s a whole lot of rebuttals to things I didn’t say. I didn’t say that sodomy meant only gay sex. However, it is, by definition, the only kind of sex gay people can have. So, yeah, laws against sodomy are also laws against gay sex, even though it covers some of the sex acts practiced by straight people. I also didn’t say that the SC tried to outlaw sodomy, I said they didn’t see a problem with it being outlawed. > > But thanks for trying. So you think sodomy is the only kind of sex gay people can have? Wow. So they werent trying to outlaw gay sex. You said that the 3 Justices ‘… saw absolutely no problem with criminalizing homosexuality.’ But where did they say that? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/77 "2015-08-06T23:51:43Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Since when did sodomy come to mean only gay sex? Well, in practical terms it may have happened prior to _Bowers v. Hardwick_, when Michael Hardwick was arrested in a state that had not seen a single prosecution under anti-sodomy laws in over 50 years. He was not arrested for sodomy, he was arrested for being gay…and _charged_ with sodomy. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/78 "2015-08-06T23:54:43Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > So you think sodomy is the only kind of sex gay people can have? I suppose there are perfectly happy couples who limit themselves to mutual masturbation. But when one eliminates both oral and anal sex, the options are awfully limited, no? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/79 "2015-08-06T23:57:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > . . . I didn’t say that sodomy meant only gay sex. However, it is, by definition, the only kind of sex gay people can have. . . . Are Tribadism and manual sex included under “sodomy?” (Is “cuddling” a form of “sex?” What about breast massage? I’m told that breast play can result in glorious sexual gratification.) Just nitpicking: I agree with your major point, that the Supreme Court’s minority was very likely inspired by an anti-gay agenda. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949/80 "2015-08-07T00:13:04Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I suppose there are perfectly happy couples who limit themselves to mutual masturbation. But when one eliminates both oral and anal sex, the options are awfully limited, no? Well, if you exclude salad and the main course all we have for dinner is dessert. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intellectually-what-does-islam-offer-the-west/724949.md?page=5)