# Intelligence of whales and dolphins **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993 "2012-02-25T20:23:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/1 "2012-02-25T20:23:26Z")
The Nature series on PBS had an amazing doc the other night on whales and dolphins and their strategies for catching fish. These aren’t the result of instincts that every individual is born with, but separate strategies that groups in different parts of the world have thought out according to the environment they live in. For instance, in shallow waters in the Gulf of Mexico, dolphins will swim ahead of a school of fish and, using their tail flippers, kick up two walls of cloudy silt in a V formation that funnels the school into the narrow end, where the dolphins sit and easily pick off the fish. The same principle was used by humans in shallow rivers: lay rocks in a V shape to force the fish into the narrow end. And plains Indians did the same to guide herds of buffalo into a pound or over a jump. Off the coast of Alaska, members of a whale pod, each with a specific task, contained a school of fish and forced them to the surface where the whales moved in for easy pickin’s. It was a complex process that required coordination and timing to work, and they pulled it off. Without our manual dexterity, they obviously don’t possess the technical skills we have, but is it too great a leap to say their problem-solving intelligence is on a par with ours, or even greater? This is a quote from the [preview and introduction page](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/ocean-giants/introduction/7563/) on PBS: > [@](#): > > Like us, cetaceans have special brain cells, spindle cells, that are associated with communication, emotion, and heightened social sensitivity. These cells were once thought to be unique to us, but research is now showing that whales and dolphins may have up to three times more spindle cells than humans. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/2 "2012-02-25T20:43:02Z")
It’s not a great leap. I’ll do your examples one better: whales actually have art and/or culture. That is to say, not only will whales of similar species but different geographical areas sing differently depending on which pods they hail from ; but a given song can become “popular” and travel across pods and geography, either through outcasts joining a new pod and teaching them their song, or simply pods hearing the song and carrying it themselves. Another one: dolphins know about playing. They’ll blow air bubbles and manipulate them just like smokers blow smoke rings. They’ll also mock-hunt fish, give them a love bite and move on. Dolphins have even been known to cooperate with humans, herding fish towards beaches where humans set up nets and getting “paid” with some of the catch. All informally and without any training. Of course, they’ll also rape each other regardless of sex, so there’s that. But it’s all in good fin. Fun. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/3 "2012-02-25T20:59:42Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > is it too great a leap to say their problem-solving intelligence is on a par with ours, or even greater? IMO, yes. Being human, it’s easy for us to downplay our abilities (and wish that animals’ cognitive abilities were a little closer to ours). But in reality a human at age 2 can already solve some comparatively complex problems, let alone an adult human. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/4 "2012-02-25T22:41:36Z")
I’ve got _Nature_ on series record, so I get all the shows. It was always good, but it’s gotten a lot better of late. I started watching this one last night, and was blown away by the photography. In HD, this is far and away the most amazing filming of cetaceans I have ever seen. And I was sooooo pleasantly surprised when I saw the 3 hour designation wasn’t a mistake! I’m only 1/3 of the way through, and am really looking forward to the other 2/3s. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/5 "2012-02-26T00:48:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s not a great leap. > > I’ll do your examples one better: whales actually have art and/or culture. That is to say, not only will whales of similar species but different geographical areas sing differently depending on which pods they hail from ; but a given song can become “popular” and travel across pods and geography, either through outcasts joining a new pod and teaching them their song, or simply pods hearing the song and carrying it themselves. > > Another one: dolphins know about playing. They’ll blow air bubbles and manipulate them just like smokers blow smoke rings. They’ll also mock-hunt fish, give them a love bite and move on. Dolphins have even been known to cooperate with humans, herding fish towards beaches where humans set up nets and getting “paid” with some of the catch. All informally and without any training. > Of course, they’ll also rape each other regardless of sex, so there’s that. Well that blows me away, too. Makes me wonder if they can count, or even have mathematics of some kind. I’d like to know how much of their communication we understand (which I’m going to look into when I finish this post). I did know that dolphins have been known to start picking on a member of their group until they drive it away, presumably for a good reason from the pod’s point of view that we can’t see. I’ve seen pigs do it on my uncle’s farm too, and they’re considered a relatively intelligent animal. > [@Kobal2](#): > > But it’s all in good fin. Fun. Whatever. Was that on porpoise? 😛 > [@Mijin](#): > > IMO, yes. Being human, it’s easy for us to downplay our abilities (and wish that animals’ cognitive abilities were a little closer to ours). But in reality a human at age 2 can already solve some comparatively complex problems, let alone an adult human. Yeah, I’m trying keep the “Wow, neat-o!” reaction under control, but hey, I’m only human.😉 But you have to admit that the level of logical and social intelligence it takes to do what those animals did was greater than a two-year-old human’s, far greater I’d say. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ve got _Nature_ on series record, so I get all the shows. It was always good, but it’s gotten a lot better of late. I started watching this one last night, and was blown away by the photography. In HD, this is far and away the most amazing filming of cetaceans I have ever seen. And I was sooooo pleasantly surprised when I saw the 3 hour designation wasn’t a mistake! I’m only 1/3 of the way through, and am really looking forward to the other 2/3s. We have standard TV but the technical quality of the production was still impressive. You won’t be disappointed with the rest of the program. If it’s repeated this weekend, I’m going to record it for sure. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/6 "2012-02-26T01:55:22Z")
I say we resume hunting them for meat, only the cleverest will elude us, and then that selection pressure will eventually produce fully sentient cetaceans. And eventually they will fight back and go to war with us with technologies undreamed-of, and that in turn will boost **our** average mental capacity by attrition-of-the-slow and so on. Win-win! 🙂 BTW, is the meat any good? Anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/7 "2012-02-26T06:57:02Z")
Mmmm, filet o’ dolphin…[/Homer Simpson] I did wonder, if they were land animals with their intelligence, if we’d have serious competitors for the top of the food chain, but [it doesn’t look like it](http://thedolphinplace.com/facts.html): > [@](#): > > Most researchers agree that dolphins exhibit a level of intelligence greater then that of dogs and even comparable to that of some primates–but not human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/8 "2012-02-26T07:36:53Z")
Well, they dropped that nuke on Japan. That took some gumption. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/9 "2012-02-27T20:12:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I say we resume hunting them for meat, only the cleverest will elude us, and then that selection pressure will eventually produce fully sentient cetaceans. And eventually they will fight back and go to war with us with technologies undreamed-of, and that in turn will boost **our** average mental capacity by attrition-of-the-slow and so on. Win-win! 🙂 Getting back back to your tongue-filled cheek, that would actually be a good idea in the long run. We humans are acting rather irresponsibly with no competitor to check our behaviour. We need something that restricts our population and over-consumption. So yeah, win-win. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/10 "2012-02-27T20:17:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, they dropped that nuke on Japan. That took some gumption. I don’t get that. If you’re referring to cetaceans not having the ability to do that, it was already covered in the OP: “Without our manual dexterity, they obviously don’t possess the technical skills we have…” Other than that…😕 ---
**Author:** ![savvsyearch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@savvsyearch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/savvsyearch)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/11 "2012-02-28T00:57:27Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Without our manual dexterity, they obviously don’t possess the technical skills we have, but is it too great a leap to say their problem-solving intelligence is on a par with ours, or even greater? Yes, it’s a pretty big leap. I find it hard to believe that whales would just love to record new algebraic theory for catching fish, but are cursing to themselves "damn these stupid fins! " But really, I can’t see how there would be an evolutionary purpose for whales in having human-like level of intelligence. I think that’s too simplistic. For whales, I think it would actually be an evolutionary disadvantage. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/12 "2012-02-28T01:01:34Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > I don’t get that. If you’re referring to cetaceans not having the ability to do that, it was already covered in the OP: “Without our manual dexterity, they obviously don’t possess the technical skills we have…” > > Other than that…😕 The Japanese hate dolphins because a dolphin piloted the Enola Gay. [My post is my cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_Whores) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/13 "2012-02-28T01:36:19Z")
An article in this weeks [Economist](http://www.economist.com/node/21548150) pertinent to this discussion. > [@](#): > > Whales and dolphins have complex cultures, too, which vary from group to group within a species. The way they hunt, the repertoire of vocal signals and even their use of tools differs from pod to pod. They also seem to have an awareness of themselves as individuals. At least some can, for example, recognise themselves in a mirror—a trick that humans, great apes and elephants can manage, but most other species cannot. > Thomas White, of Loyola Marymount University, in Los Angeles, then discussed the ethical implications of what Dr Marino had said. Dr White is a philosopher, and he sought to establish the idea that a person need not be human. In philosophy, he told the meeting, a person is a being with special characteristics who deserves special treatment as a result of those characteristics. In principle, other species can qualify. For the reasons outlined by Dr Marino, he claimed, cetaceans do indeed count as persons and therefore have moral rights—though ones appropriate to their species, which may therefore differ from those that would be accorded a human (for example, the right not to be removed from their natural environment). Human level does not necessarily mean human like. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/14 "2012-02-28T02:08:32Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Getting back back to your tongue-filled cheek, that would actually be a good idea in the long run. We humans are acting rather irresponsibly with no competitor to check our behaviour. We need something that restricts our population and over-consumption. So yeah, win-win. 🙂 So? Is the meat any good? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/15 "2012-02-28T09:50:16Z")
> [@savvsyearch](#): > > Yes, it’s a pretty big leap. I find it hard to believe that whales would just love to record new algebraic theory for catching fish, but are cursing to themselves "damn these stupid fins! " > > But really, I can’t see how there would be an evolutionary purpose for whales in having human-like level of intelligence. I think that’s too simplistic. For whales, I think it would actually be an evolutionary disadvantage. I was thinking more along the lines of counting. If one sees a school of fish, what does it communicate to the others? “There’s a hundred fish in that school. Let’s get 'em.” or “Only ten fish, never mind.” Probably more like, “Lots of fish, let’s get 'em” or “Not many fish, never mind.” [This web page](http://www.dolphins.org/research_DRC.php#NUM) from the Dolphin Research Center says they seem to have at least the first rudimentary concepts of numbers, but nothing like what my excited imagination conjured. Like you say, there’s no evolutionary incentive for them to become math nerds. > [@andros](#): > > The Japanese hate dolphins because a dolphin piloted the Enola Gay. Thanks for fighting my ignorance. That’s what I get for not watching South Park. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So? Is the meat any good? Tastes fishy. Not at all like chicken. Except the ones raised on chicken fish. Then it’s southern deep fried goodness. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/16 "2012-02-28T11:15:43Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > An article in this weeks [Economist](http://www.economist.com/node/21548150) pertinent to this discussion. > Human level does not necessarily mean human like. A creature that can grasp the concept of forming a funnel-shaped obstruction to direct its prey–exactly what our hunter/gatherer ancestors did–does strike me as eerily human-like and I think deserves some kind of attention. But as far as granting them personhood, I can’t quite put my finger on it, but there just seems something naive and/or self-aggrandizing about it, like we’d be conferring the title of Honourary Humans. I’d go along with it on one condition: if we’re going to respect them as equals, we should do the respectful thing–ask their permission first. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/17 "2012-02-28T11:27:57Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Tastes fishy. Not at all like chicken. So in a way you could call it Fish of the Sea. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/18 "2012-02-28T11:49:27Z")
There’s also the problem that the concept of intelligence is relatively anthropocentric – I mean, how do we gauge intelligence? Through measuring somebody’s aptitude at certain kinds of problem-solving. What kinds of problems those are, though, is largely arbitrary; so ultimately, calling somebody intelligent is kind of tautologous: somebody good at solving these kinds of problems is good at solving these kinds of problems. But different problems than those that pertain to humans presumably pertain to dolphins; so how should we create an ‘inter-species’ concept of intelligence? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/19 "2012-02-28T12:02:55Z")
I think the personhood thing is politics, not science or philosophy. It’s great if it helps to reduce whaling, but taking the suggestion seriously would open up quite the can of worms, and lead to contradictions and incoherency in how we define “person”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993/20 "2012-02-28T12:06:22Z")
Doesn’t it depend on the whale? The species of whale, I mean? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intelligence-of-whales-and-dolphins/613993.md?page=2)