# Interaction Different with Police based on Race **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423 "2016-08-29T18:36:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/61 "2016-09-02T22:33:47Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I think it would be pretty reasonable for a cop to expect an explanation for a passenger in a traffic stop having muscle twitches and facial tics. So what do you think should happen if the passenger refuses to give an explanation? What’s the next course of action we should permit him to take at that point? I think it would be pretty reasonable for a cop to expect some segment of the population to naturally have muscle twitches and facial tics, being that there are several rather run-of-the-mill health conditions that could cause this. So I don’t understand where the expectation for knowing a diagnosis would come from, like at all. At any rate, why should a cop be any more concerned about a _passenger_ with tics, when it would be unlawful for him to detain and question a pedestrian for exhibiting the same behavior? That’s the part that gets me. Let’s say someone gets tics in the presence of cops because they are deathly afraid of law enforcement. Is this evidence of a guilty conscious that means they deserve to be constantly profiled and interrogated? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/62 "2016-09-02T22:46:27Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So what do you think should happen if the passenger refuses to give an explanation? What’s the next course of action should we permit him to take? You’ve found the whole crux of the debate with that question. Your hypothetical person would be perfectly within their rights to refuse to speak with the cop, but then again so was the OP’s friend. So imagine a different scenario. Let’s make a hypothetical where the driver and passenger are switched in the OP’s story. The cop makes a traffic stop, seeing a black driver who does not appear to be nervous at all, and is not suspicious. The cop also sees a white passenger with his hands held in an awkward gesture of surrender, who appears to be very nervous. Something’s fishy there, right? He has the white passenger step out of the car and questions him, finding that the white passenger is just afraid of police and didn’t do anything wrong. The cop says essentially, “Stop acting so friggin’ weird around cops. There’s no reason to do that, and it makes us nervous.” The cop then wishes them a good night and sends them on their way. Can you find anywhere in the above hypothetical where the cop acted improperly? I can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/63 "2016-09-02T23:17:21Z")
Strangely enough, that different scenario is not what happened. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/64 "2016-09-02T23:52:02Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > So imagine a different scenario. Let’s make a hypothetical where the driver and passenger are switched in the OP’s story. The cop makes a traffic stop, seeing a black driver who does not appear to be nervous at all, and is not suspicious. The cop also sees a white passenger with his hands held in an awkward gesture of surrender, who appears to be very nervous. Something’s fishy there, right? No, I don’t see it as “fishy” because that word has sinister, shifty connotations. My first impression, _at worse_, might be that the guy was goofing off, making a game out of things just to be absurd. But more charitably, I would just think he was simply a high-strung person of the nervous and anxious variety as opposed to the aggressive and angry. I wouldn’t see his gesture as a sign of guilt or subterfuge or anything else that signals law-breaking. Someone who goes out of their way to alert cops to their harmlessness aren’t acting like people concerned about being caught for a crime. They are acting like people who, for whatever reason, are afraid of being hurt. _Why_ they are that way isn’t any more my business than me knowing why they are listening to country music in southwest Atlanta. Even if the guy’s behavior suggested he might be drunk or under the influence of mind-altering drugs, that isn’t a crime if you’re not driving a car. Those mind-altering drugs very well may be legal and administered under a doctor’s orders. Why should a cop make it his business to probe such a sensitive subject when he can’t lawfully retaliate against a non-response? Does he really think anyone is gonna admit to holding up his arms weird-like because he just binged on a kilo of coke? > [@](#): > > He has the white passenger step out of the car and questions him, finding that the white passenger is just afraid of police and didn’t do anything wrong. The cop says essentially, “ **Stop acting so friggin’ weird around cops. There’s no reason to do that** , and it makes us nervous.” The cop then wishes them a good night and sends them on their way. > > Can you find anywhere in the above hypothetical where the cop acted improperly? I can’t. Do you think cops can say whatever they want to people without being guilty of bullying or harassment? “Stop acting so friggin’ weird…” has the appearance of a direct order, does it not? You have an armed agent of the government coercing you out of the car, policing the way you hold your arms of all things, lecturing you about actions that are of zero consequence to the law, and in the process, extending a traffic stop longer than necessary for reasons that have more to do with ego-tripping than concerns about investigating a potential crime…the better question to ask is why should we be calling this conduct _proper_. The onus should be on cops to justify invading our privacy and security. Yall seem to think the responsibility is on citizens to prove they aren’t deserving of harassment. I’m sorry but that will never stop being pathetic to me. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/65 "2016-09-03T00:19:04Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Y The cop says essentially, “Stop acting so friggin’ weird around cops. There’s no reason to do that, and it makes us nervous.” The cop then wishes them a good night and sends them on their way. > > Can you find anywhere in the above hypothetical where the cop acted improperly? I can’t. I’m a public servant. When I’m engaging with the public, I’m expected to be courteous and polite and overlook harmless idiosyncracies (like motor tics, for instance), even if they hurt my precious feelings. If I scolded a citizen for being “friggin’ weird” around me, I would expect to be reprimanded by my supervisor and possibly lose my job. Why do we have such low standards for police officers? As the frontmost face of government, they should be held to the highest standards of customer service. Not the lowest. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/66 "2016-09-03T00:25:01Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Abnormal behavior that signals potential criminality, maybe. But we don’t pay them to bug someone who is acting “abnormal” for just because reasons. Being harmlessly weird is a freedom I’m not willing to give away to anyone, especially an agent of the government. > > The OP was the one who was driving, not his passenger. I can imagine a situation in which, instead of a black man fearful of getting shot, the passenger is someone with muscular dystrophy, facial tics, or some other disorder that would cause them to look and act “abnormally”. Are cops owed an explanation for every single thing that human beings do that deviates from preconceived norms, and are they entitled to make demands on these people until they are fully satisfied there is nothing illegal to nail them on? > > I find it fascinating that the OP has admitted to not turning off his car and illuminating his car interior and yet didn’t earn any special attention from the cop. As the driver, he was the only who was responsible for the violation that got him stopped; his passenger, for all intents and purposes, was as much of a bystander in the whole exchange as some random pedestrian would’ve been. But he’s the one getting scrutinized? > > So this leads me to wonder: do yall think we should we have cops asking people on the street for their licenses for the offense of holding their arms up in an awkward display of defenselessness? If anyone believes this sounds acceptable, then it’s no wonder our country is on the path that it is. Yes, the passenger wasn’t driving the car. Is it your contention that police should overlook strange behavior? This is an easy method of ferreting out problems. What if your son was in the back seat with glassy eyes? Should the officer ignore it? 5 minutes down the road he goes into cardiac arrest from a heroin overdose. This is a HUGE problem in my area. we just had a father and son die in the middle of the road from a heroin overdose. It’s sad enough they died but they could have killed a bus load of children. What would you say to an officer who ignored this? Observed-behavior is a valuable tool for law enforcement to use when dealing with the unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/67 "2016-09-03T00:45:27Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m a public servant. When I’m engaging with the public, I’m expected to be courteous and polite and overlook harmless idiosyncracies (like motor tics, for instance), even if they hurt my precious feelings. If I scolded a citizen for being “friggin’ weird” around me, I would expect to be reprimanded by my supervisor and possibly lose my job. Why do we have such low standards for police officers? As the frontmost face of government, they should be held to the highest standards of customer service. Not the lowest. A motor tick is not an idiosyncrasy. It’s a neurological condition. And yes, a police officer is expected to be courteous just as every other public servant is expected to be. I’ve encountered all manner of people when dealing with public servants. It would be nice if the screening process for the job of police officer screened out everybody below your expectations but in the real world you’re going to find someone who rubs you the wrong way. As I’ve said before, I’ve had run-ins with some pretty obnoxious officers. It’s not hard to tell you’re not imaging it when the officer backing him up is rolling his eyes behind his back. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/68 "2016-09-03T13:29:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A motor tick is not an idiosyncrasy. It’s a neurological condition. Correct. And I shouldn’t have to explain to some dick in a uniform why I move the way I do when my movements are completely harmless and they only make me look “friggin’ weird”. Because if I had to answer such a question honestly, my answer would be: “You’re making me nervous, and my tic disorder is exacerbated when I’m nervous.” I’d probably lose my temper if the cop told me I have no reason to be nervous. Losing my temper around a dick in a uniform can be a death sentence. If he asks for my driver’s license I will comply. But if he asks why I’m acting “friggin’ weird”, I have the right to say “I’d rather not say.” If he’s fine with this, great. The problem is that a lot of cops aren’t fine with this and will use me exercising my rights as an excuse to escalate the situation (like by ordering me to get out of the car). > [@](#): > > And yes, a police officer is expected to be courteous just as every other public servant is expected to be. I’ve encountered all manner of people when dealing with public servants. It would be nice if the screening process for the job of police officer screened out everybody below your expectations but in the real world you’re going to find someone who rubs you the wrong way. And when this happens, citizens should be able to exert their rights and say “fuck off, you jerk”. The problem is that this often ends up with the citizen \*losing \*their rights. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/69 "2016-09-03T14:14:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, the passenger wasn’t driving the car. > > Is it your contention that police should overlook strange behavior? Yes, if the behavior is harmless and signals nothing unlawful. I thought my point about this was crystal clear the first time I made it, so how many more iterations do you need? > [@](#): > > This is an easy method of ferreting out problems. What if your son was in the back seat with glassy eyes? Should the officer ignore it? He could ask me if everything is all right. If I say yup, and he asks me about my son, and I say he always looks like that, then what? Can the cop detain me any longer to “investigate” the truth? Can he order my son out of the car and perform a neuro exam on him? Can he hook me up to a lie detector to verify my honesty? Should he call for an ambulance despite what I’ve told him? Should he pester my son with questions about his glassy eyedness until my son convinces him he isn’t high on narcotics? And so now let’s bring this hypothetical back to the subject at hand. Should the cop insist my son stop looking glassy eyed because it makes him nervous? Should he tell him he has no reason to look like that, so stop? Because this is where we go from “cop trying to investigate strangeness” to “cop using his position of power to control someone’s harmless behavior, simply because he doesn’t like it”. > [@](#): > > 5 minutes down the road he goes into cardiac arrest from a heroin overdose. This is a HUGE problem in my area. we just had a father and son die in the middle of the road from a heroin overdose. It’s sad enough they died but they could have killed a bus load of children. What would you say to an officer who ignored this? Two men dying in the middle of the street deserve a call to 911. Being interrogated, searched, and bossed around by a cop offended by the sight of their “strangeness” is not what they deserve. Is that clear? Let’s be real. The cop in the OP wasn’t concerned about any medical crisis. He wasn’t concerned about anything except teaching a frightened man a lesson. You are defending that cop with an example that not even Stretch Armstrong would treat as comparable. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/70 "2016-09-03T16:44:34Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And when this happens, citizens should be able to exert their rights and say “fuck off, you jerk”. The problem is that this often ends up with the citizen \*losing \*their rights. The standards you set for civil servants differs from those you hold yourself to. Putting that aside you still aren’t grasping the function of investigating odd behavior. It’s the difference between what we go through with the TSA at an airport and what the Israelis do. They’re specifically watching for behavior because it’s an exceptionally good way of discovering problems before they occur. All that occurred in the op’s example was that his passenger was asked to get out of the car. That gives the officer a chance to assess the situation better. It’s the same thing that happens to everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/71 "2016-09-03T16:53:38Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He could ask me if everything is all right. If I say yup, and he asks me about my son, and I say he always looks like that, then what? If either of you are acting strangely then the officer investigates. Had that happened to the father/son in my example the would probably be alive today. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/72 "2016-09-03T17:11:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The standards you set for civil servants differs from those you hold yourself to. Yes, of course. A civil servant is being paid to perform their job duties with a degree of decorum and respect. Their salaries compensate them for putting up with rude customers. I don’t get paid to be hassled by rude police officers. Do you? > [@](#): > > Putting that aside you still aren’t grasping the function of investigating odd behavior. > > It’s the difference between what we go through with the TSA at an airport and what the Israelis do. They’re specifically watching for behavior because it’s an exceptionally good way of discovering problems before they occur. I’m scratching my head, trying to understand how someone holding their hands in an outstretched manner would be a warning sign of terroristic activity. At any rate, I don’t want my country to be modeled after Israel. Perhaps Israel has good reasons to give weird-looking people a hard time, and maybe the Israelis are perfectly fine with this. But I don’t think Americans have signed up for that kind of policing. > [@](#): > > All that occurred in the op’s example was that his passenger was asked to get out of the car. That gives the officer a chance to assess the situation better. It’s the same thing that happens to everybody else. Dicks in uniforms can gin up any reason they want to “assess the situation better” and then totally fuck someone over. So the non-dicks in uniform would be wise to not play this card over trivial matters (like outstretched hands) if they don’t want citizens to automatically react to them with fear. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/73 "2016-09-03T18:30:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If either of you are acting strangely then the officer investigates. Had that happened to the father/son in my example the would probably be alive today. “investigate” means nothing unless you define it. Cops can ask questions to “investigate” anything they want, but again, unless someone’s behavior suggest law-breaking, there are limits to what they can do without crossing into harassment and gratitutous dick-waving that undermines public trust. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/74 "2016-09-04T05:12:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Cops can ask questions to “investigate” anything they want, but again, unless someone’s behavior suggest law-breaking, there are limits to what they can do without crossing into harassment and gratitutous dick-waving that undermines public trust. yes, there are limits. Nothing close to any limit occurred in the op’s example. He was asked to exit the car. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/75 "2016-09-04T07:15:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m scratching my head, trying to understand how someone holding their hands in an outstretched manner would be a warning sign of terroristic activity. > > At any rate, I don’t want my country to be modeled after Israel. Perhaps Israel has good reasons to give weird-looking people a hard time, and maybe the Israelis are perfectly fine with this. But I don’t think Americans have signed up for that kind of policing. Isn’t “looking for unusual behavior” basically how the Secret Service protects the president? The Israeli approach is simply to apply the same methods to airport security, and to a lesser degree, to security in general. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/76 "2016-09-04T13:45:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Isn’t “looking for unusual behavior” basically how the Secret Service protects the president? The Israeli approach is simply to apply the same methods to airport security, and to a lesser degree, to security in general. Surely you see the difference between a “weirdo” as a passenger in some random car on some random street and a “weirdo” rubbing shoulders with the president. Or a “weirdo” at an airport that is a target for terroristic activity. The police talk about how overworked they are as it is. If they are supposed to investigate every “weird-looking” person brave enough to venture outside, they aren’t going to have a lot of time left to go after actual criminals. And as a weird-looking individual, I shouldn’t have to worry about being investigated every time I step outside, especially if the police are going to have a problem with me not explaining myself to them. I don’t carry a certificate around with me that verifies my perfectly valid reasons for being “weird”. And I have no intention of ever doing so. If a police officer is unnerved by weird behavior, he or she needs to choose another line of work. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/77 "2016-09-04T13:58:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Is it your contention that police should overlook strange behavior? It _isn’t_ strange behavior for a black man, confronted by a white police officer, to be fearful and demonstratively submissive. ---
**Author:** ![vtxrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d26b3c/32.png) [@vtxrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vtxrider)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/78 "2016-09-04T21:28:37Z")
In fact, given the current climate, I would say it would be weirder if I had been the passenger and put up my hands in that manner (as there is no general feeling of I better look completely defenseless) than my buddy doing it. After all, he was doing so, because as a black man, he has been taught to present himself as defenseless as possible to ensure he doesn’t cause the officer to resort to deadly force. As a white guy, I cannot understand having to feel like this, but that is his reality. So as a white guy, if I am acting like that, it is weird and I would understand him investigating further. But knowing that is common for an African American to present themselves to avoid undue issues, that would not seem that weird. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/79 "2016-09-05T00:15:13Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > It _isn’t_ strange behavior for a black man, confronted by a white police officer, to be fearful and demonstratively submissive. uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423/80 "2016-09-13T17:24:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > your buddy acted suspicious and the cop was acting weird. The only remotely suspicious thing he did was put his hands up. So perhaps you and this guy need to have a talk about how not to act suspicious during a traffic stop. > [@Magiver](#): > > As was stated earlier the office is looking for behavior out of the norm. I was in a truck as a passenger when pulled over and the officer said the turn signal didn’t work. My friend started to get out of the truck to look at it. I calmly stopped him from doing so but the door was opened. The officer wheeled around on us VERY quickly. That single act ramped up a non-situation to a “conversation”. > > When I get pulled over I do the following: > Turn the car off and put the keys on the dash where they can be seen. > turn the dome light on > roll down all the windows if I’m driving a car with power windows > have my license and CCW in plain sight. > Answer questions quickly and honestly > hold my hands palms up on the wheel. > > The last one is a new addition. Closed palms allow a driver to hide a knife behind the steering wheel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interaction-different-with-police-based-on-race/764423.md?page=5)