# Interesting article by female Marine Captain on women serving in the infantry (she's against it) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 17, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949 "2012-10-17T01:03:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/21 "2012-10-17T15:26:41Z")
If you’re not in the fairness business, you have no business fighting wars. What the hell would you be fighting for? ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/22 "2012-10-17T15:30:20Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > But how do you determine who can do it? Have an ‘indoc’ process for women who want to be in the infantry that they have to pass before they’re admitted? This is, pretty much, exactly what they do. For the men too. [First Female Marines Take Combat Leadership Test : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2012/10/04/162231290/first-female-marines-take-combat-leadership-test) > [@](#): > > You can’t just let in any woman who can pass a minimum requirement, and then wash them out if they can’t handle the prolonged, repetitive tasks like humping a pack (or a machine gun, or a mortar, or a box of ammo, or a water can). That would be a disaster as far as unit integrity. And they don’t just let anybody in. The minimum requirements get you into the course. You still have to pass it. The second of the first two women to try has now washed out. But she outlasted a LOT of guys. I don’t see where “very big changes” have to be made in order for women to try; let them meet the requirements, and let them stay in or wash out on their own merits. Same as the men. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/23 "2012-10-17T15:36:42Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > This is, pretty much, exactly what they do. For the men too. [First Female Marines Take Combat Leadership Test : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2012/10/04/162231290/first-female-marines-take-combat-leadership-test) > And they don’t just let anybody in. The minimum requirements get you into the course. You still have to pass it. > > The second of the first two women to try has now washed out. But she outlasted a LOT of guys. I don’t see where “very big changes” have to be made in order for women to try; let them meet the requirements, and let them stay in or wash out on their own merits. Same as the men. That’s Infantry Officer Course…IOC is an extremely hard course, and you’re correct that there are plenty of men who don’t pass. For an elisted infantryman…er…infantryperson, the “equivalent” is School of Infantry. If you wash out of SOI, you don’t get assigned another MOS…you’re simply out. It doesn’t happen very often, because effort-wise it’s just a continuation of boot camp. Huge waste of time an money to train somebody who will fail to complete their first 12-mile hike in SOI, though. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/24 "2012-10-17T16:05:32Z")
> [@Imago](#): > > I fail to see how it’s any different from professional football. In a way it’s exactly like professional (American) football, in that infantry is one of the few lines of work where brute physical capability is an absolutely key feature of the job. In the same way that an NFL team wouldn’t get a lot of joy from putting a woman in as nose tackle, I don’t think there the average infantry squad would see a lot of success in loading a woman up with 50+kg of body armour, ammunition, rifle, bayonet and whatnot and going out into extended combat engagements on a frequent basis. One of the major difference obviously being that in the infantry not being able to keep up physically can get you and your colleagues killed fairly easily. Plus training and combat related over-exertion injuries (torn ligaments, ruptured disks, etc.) are already a huge problem for all-male infantry organisations. But then on the other hand so is a shortage of suitable recruits, which is often worse for officers. Maybe the solution is to induct women contingent on them having steroid implants for 18 months beforehand to reduce some of the physical gap? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/25 "2012-10-17T16:07:16Z")
I agree with MOIDALIZE, the real issue is that our infantry soldiers are expected to lug too much shit around. There are other armies (Canada, Greece, and India IIRC) that take a leaner/meaner approach to logistics and who also don’t have this ongoing debate over whether women should be in their combat infantry units. ---
**Author:** ![Imago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@Imago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imago)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/26 "2012-10-17T17:02:40Z")
That is definitely an important angle to look at. I’m a college-age Canadian and women have been allowed to serve in any and all roles men have here since before I was born. I will have to google how much weight a Marine carries and compare to how much various types of Canadian combat roles carry. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/27 "2012-10-17T17:12:57Z")
I think what she’s arguing against is the integration of women into infantry. That implies lots of women getting assigned to that field, and getting broken, in order to advance equally with the men, towards eventual general officer ranks. It’s kind of setting women up for failure. Better, in her opinion, is to let women perform and distinguish themselves in combat roles they can sustain. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/28 "2012-10-17T17:13:11Z")
According to a Naval Research Advisory Committee report, the average Marine carries 97 to 135 pounds in combat loads. This includes body armor. I believe the avg Canadian forces infantry kit weighs around 58lbs, although I’m having trouble finding a cite for it online. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/29 "2012-10-17T19:40:50Z")
Set one standard and leave it at that. Women who can hack it with the guys should be allowed, no lower standards. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/30 "2012-10-17T22:10:07Z")
> [@Septima](#): > > If you’re not in the fairness business, you have no business fighting wars. What the hell would you be fighting for? I have no idea what you are trying to say. > [@slaphead](#): > > In a way it’s exactly like professional (American) football, in that infantry is one of the few lines of work where brute physical capability is an absolutely key feature of the job. > > In the same way that an NFL team wouldn’t get a lot of joy from putting a woman in as nose tackle, I don’t think there the average infantry squad would see a lot of success in loading a woman up with 50+kg of body armour, ammunition, rifle, bayonet and whatnot and going out into extended combat engagements on a frequent basis. One of the major difference obviously being that in the infantry not being able to keep up physically can get you and your colleagues killed fairly easily. Plus training and combat related over-exertion injuries (torn ligaments, ruptured disks, etc.) are already a huge problem for all-male infantry organisations. > > But then on the other hand so is a shortage of suitable recruits, which is often worse for officers. Maybe the solution is to induct women contingent on them having steroid implants for 18 months beforehand to reduce some of the physical gap? There is no shortage of recruits. Or officer candidates. In fact there is a draw down and they are getting rid of good people. There is no need except politics. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/31 "2012-10-17T23:19:12Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Set one standard and leave it at that. Women who can hack it with the guys should be allowed, no lower standards. Agreed. One single standard that applies to all. If you meet the standard and can maintain it, you’re in. If you can’t, you’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/32 "2012-10-18T01:48:08Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > But I blanked out after the fiftieth military acronym. All she has is anecdotal testimony. If you have been part of today’s military, acronyms and anecdotes are the way you tell your story. It’s what establishes your credibility. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/33 "2012-10-18T14:12:12Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Agreed. One single standard that applies to all. If you meet the standard and can maintain it, you’re in. If you can’t, you’re not. But from reading the article, it sounds like she’s saying she could have met the current standards to enter/complete infantry officer training, but wouldn’t have been able to be an effective officer because of long-term endurance issues. How do you test ahead of time whether someone will be able to hump a 100 lb. pack for months on end? Whether that’s purely or mainly gender-related, I don’t know. She seems to think it is, but also admits there isn’t much long term data on it. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/34 "2012-10-18T15:48:46Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > But from reading the article, it sounds like she’s saying she could have met the current standards to enter/complete infantry officer training, but wouldn’t have been able to be an effective officer because of long-term endurance issues. How do you test ahead of time whether someone will be able to hump a 100 lb. pack for months on end? > > Whether that’s purely or mainly gender-related, I don’t know. She seems to think it is, but also admits there isn’t much long term data on it. You can’t test for that at all. You can test physical endurance, and mental strengths and take an educated guess. What we we CAN do is set a high physical standard that ensures the highest level of success in those categories. The result of that my be that 99% of women are eliminated from participation while only, say, 75% of men fail. That is the disparity of biology acting, and I see no reason to adjust artificially for that. A woman who can perform at the elite level that the men are performing at has the same _statistical_ chances as the males. Bone is bone, muscle is muscle. There is no reason to assume a difference unless we can get a far-ranging, fairly long term study to demonstrate that elite performing females are still failing at some level, and the only difference is gender. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/35 "2012-10-18T16:25:13Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > If you have been part of today’s military, acronyms and anecdotes are the way you tell your story. It’s what establishes your credibility. As was pointed out earlier, the target audience of the article is other Marines in a Marine publication. Its simply the language that is spoken. There is no need to dumb it down or provide translation for an audience who already knows exactly what you are saying. And for that audience it is a lot simpler and efficient to speak in their language. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/36 "2012-10-18T18:09:45Z")
> [@bump](#): > > All I know is that she talks about graduating college as a serious athlete, and benching 145 and squatting 200. > > Most male high school athletes can probably match those numbers fairly easily, and collegiate athletes can probably do 2x that. I started seeing a personal trainer after basically never being in shape and in less than a month I could bench 150 pounds and squat 200. I’d bet there’s not a single male high school athlete who can’t easily do those numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Imago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@Imago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imago)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/37 "2012-10-18T20:32:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Agreed. One single standard that applies to all. If you meet the standard and can maintain it, you’re in. If you can’t, you’re not. I agree, but good luck getting either side of the battle of the sexes to agree to that. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949/38 "2012-10-19T10:01:11Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > That is the disparity of biology acting, and I see no reason to adjust artificially for that. A woman who can perform at the elite level that the men are performing at has the same _statistical_ chances as the males. Bone is bone, muscle is muscle. And testosterone is testosterone, which is the part that you are forgetting. Why do you think so much sport doping revolves around [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid)? What that article mentioned was a lot of accumulating over-exertion injuries that eventually became nearly crippling. More androgens means faster recovery/healing as well as more (and differently distributed/textured) muscle. I have no difficulty believing that men and women might hit the same physical benchmark in one-off testing but cope very differently with sustaining that level continuously for long periods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-by-female-marine-captain-on-women-serving-in-the-infantry-shes-against-it/637949.md?page=1)