# Interesting article on Black Atheism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293 "2012-05-18T05:49:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/21 "2012-05-18T21:19:20Z")
Back to the OP: weren’t the original Black Panthers atheist? I know that they were Maosist (or at least their leaders were), which seems to imply atheism. If so, then there \*is \*a history of atheism in black America. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/22 "2012-05-18T23:00:19Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > A hypothetical religious parent may assume atheism will lead their hypothetical child to be damned to hell for all eternity. Disregarding completely the legitimacy of that view, the paternal or maternal instinct is to protect one’s child. There are numerous strategies for achieving this: refusing to accept a child’s atheism (can take the form of wilful ignorance or desire that they’re undergoing a phase) attempting to convert them back or disowning them (so the hypothetical child is no longer weighing on their conscience). > > Edit: Their comfort on Earth is inconsequential compared to the stark costs or benefits of a proffered afterlife. Which is a polite way of saying that she doesn’t care about _him_ at all. Just his imaginary soul and imaginary afterlife. She doesn’t love _him_ or feel any concern for _him_; she’s focused her affection and concern on a pseudo-son who isn’t real, ignoring the flesh-and-blood son that’s right in front of her. She’s probably the sort who’ll get her son killed if her religion demands it, or cover up his molestation by priest for the good of the church. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/23 "2012-05-18T23:58:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How the hell did this not merit a warning? > [@Rigamarole](#): > > Warning for what? It’s a joke. Is there now a policy about what subjects are OK and not OK to joke about? I assumed it was a joke, but it’s in rather poor taste, with no explanatory smiley. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/24 "2012-05-19T00:05:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which is a polite way of saying that she doesn’t care about _him_ at all. Just his imaginary soul and imaginary afterlife. She doesn’t love _him_ or feel any concern for _him_; she’s focused her affection and concern on a pseudo-son who isn’t real, ignoring the flesh-and-blood son that’s right in front of her. She’s probably the sort who’ll get her son killed if her religion demands it, or cover up his molestation by priest for the good of the church. Or simply not go to his wedding! Which always disturbs me - “I know this is most likely the only time you’re ever getting married in your life, but I won’t attend because you’re marrying an \_\_\_\_\_.” I always want to say: Suck it up, bitch, and go to your kid’s wedding. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/25 "2012-05-19T00:49:12Z")
**gamerunknown** , you make some good points about why a religious person would be upset that their children are not religious, and I don’t dispute any of them. But you could make the same sort of argument about why a person from a culture with very strict hetero-normative sexual mores might be upset that their children are gay. I’m not trying to draw an equivalence between religion and homophobia; I’m saying that the values we place on things like this are entirely cultural, and not actually founded on a reasonable consideration of their worth. That’s why it distresses me that **Babale** seems to think that one is totally reasonable (religious inflexibility) and another is totally unreasonable (sexual inflexibility). They’re both _wholly_ unreasonable. Arbitrary religious and sexual mores obviously have foundations in history and culture, and there are clear reasons why they’re selected for and propagated. But neither one has a foundation in reason. FWIW, I think we should lay off of **Rigamarole**. It can be easy to misread someone’s intentions in a sparse text-only communication medium. I think it came off in somewhat poor taste as well, but certainly not enough to warrant a warning, and I can certainly see no intended malice. The idea that the difference between including or not including a smiley face should be the line between warning and not is a little disturbing, too. He’s been admonished. No need to make a federal case out of it. Just in case: 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/26 "2012-05-19T00:57:52Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > …or that homosexuality is wrong? You do realize that that belief is very often based on religious beliefs? > > Sure, all else being equal it’s better to be bigoted about one thing versus two things, but one thing versus one other thing, I’m not really seeing the distinction. I don’t see why you think I’m AGREEING with this mom. I’m not. I’m just pointing out why she might feel that way. > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Does he still donate to charity? Is he still helpful and kind to strangers and children? Does he actually depart from how she raised him in any tangible way? No, and that’s why I don’t think she should care. But I’m explaining to you my theory as to why she does. > [@](#): > > You (and this guy’s mom) assign a higher value to matters of religious belief than that of sexual attraction. Which is fine. But it’s by no means a given. I’m not assigning meaning to anything. I’m just telling you that this guy’s mom is. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which is a polite way of saying that she doesn’t care about _him_ at all. Just his imaginary soul and imaginary afterlife. She doesn’t love _him_ or feel any concern for _him_; she’s focused her affection and concern on a pseudo-son who isn’t real, ignoring the flesh-and-blood son that’s right in front of her. She’s probably the sort who’ll get her son killed if her religion demands it, or cover up his molestation by priest for the good of the church. Yawn. > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > That’s why it distresses me that **Babale** seems to think that one is totally reasonable (religious inflexibility) and another is totally unreasonable (sexual inflexibility). They’re both _wholly_ unreasonable. Arbitrary religious and sexual mores obviously have foundations in history and culture, and there are clear reasons why they’re selected for and propagated. But neither one has a foundation in reason. Wow, guys. When did I say I agree with this woman? I’m just explaining my theory as to why she acts the way she does! This has NOTHING to do with how I feel! ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/27 "2012-05-19T01:42:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I don’t see why you think I’m AGREEING with this mom. I’m not. I’m just pointing out why she might feel that way. No, I know now that you don’t agree with her. It was just your first post that didn’t make it clear. But I still don’t really see your point. Yes, I can follow the mom’s likely thought process, but I can follow it equally well applying to either scenario (gay son or atheist son). Parents are bothered by either one for many of the exact same reasons (going to hell, goes against what you were taught, what will the neighbors think, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/28 "2012-05-19T11:37:02Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > FWIW, I think we should lay off of **Rigamarole**. It can be easy to misread someone’s intentions in a sparse text-only communication medium. I think it came off in somewhat poor taste as well, but certainly not enough to warrant a warning, and I can certainly see no intended malice. The idea that the difference between including or not including a smiley face should be the line between warning and not is a little disturbing, too. He’s been admonished. No need to make a federal case out of it. > > Just in case: 🙂 But you have to remember that joking about certain folks is especially bad. Is it accepted “fact” that blacks on average are especially anti-gay or is that a stereotype? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/29 "2012-05-19T12:26:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Yawn. Such a learned rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/30 "2012-05-19T12:55:33Z")
> [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#): > > are entirely cultural, and not actually founded on a reasonable consideration of their worth. Well, let me preface this argument by saying that I’d like people to tolerate atheism and homosexuality and think they are totally compatible with being a loving, productive member of a community. However, there are two interrelated points here. A cost/benefit analysis will include cultural relevance. Two sets of otherwise completely identical parents will have a markedly different reaction discovering their child is gay given they live in Saudi Arabia or Sweden. Likewise discovering their child is an atheist. Their own judgement is informed by social norms (not that I’m arguing for normative relativism, a person that believes in objective liberalism will still be disappointed that their child will have a rougher time in a conservative, religious country). Also, while I’m supposing paternal or maternal instincts are strong, I’d inevitably be disappointed that the values which form a core part of my personality failed to be transferred to my child. In my case, I could imagine if I had a child that was a Randian, a psychopath or a racist. It’d represent poorly on my part if I’d failed to frame issues in a way that they’d reject these beliefs. I’d also feel like the more I invested in them, the more they’d detract from the community. If I taught them some rhetorical tricks, they could use them against everything I believe in (such as the value of public institutions, or in the case of a religious parent, the value of attending regular religious ceremonies). ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/31 "2012-05-19T18:20:10Z")
Blacks get it even worse than everyone else from religion. In addition to all the effects it causes in terms of warping one’s morality, making it easier to believe other forms of bullshit, and making you easily manipulable by politicians, the “black pastor” is perhaps the ultimately loathsome parasite in the U.S. Black churches in poor areas take money that people don’t have and use it to support unbelievably lavish lifestyles of people who inherit the positions from their fathers. What “black pastors” do to their communities, poverty-wise, is absolutely disgusting, and they are on the whole the most immoral people I’ve ever met, for this and other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/32 "2012-05-19T18:55:16Z")
My black friends believe in God (that I know of - unless they are hiding it). My black students…_wow_. It’s hard enough for them to accept that some people don’t believe in Jesus, but an outright atheist? A lot of these kids still think you’re going to Hell if you’re gay. Murder, robbery, drug abuse, etc., are all forgivable offenses, but leaving out Jesus or being in a same-sex relationship is a straight ticket to Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/33 "2012-05-19T18:56:36Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Blacks get it even worse than everyone else from religion. In addition to all the effects it causes in terms of warping one’s morality, making it easier to believe other forms of bullshit, and making you easily manipulable by politicians, the “black pastor” is perhaps the ultimately loathsome parasite in the U.S. Black churches in poor areas take money that people don’t have and use it to support unbelievably lavish lifestyles of people who inherit the positions from their fathers. What “black pastors” do to their communities, poverty-wise, is absolutely disgusting, and they are on the whole the most immoral people I’ve ever met, for this and other reasons. I don’t even know where to start. Those generalizations you make of the black religious community are a little…_harsh_. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/34 "2012-05-19T19:08:31Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Murder, robbery, drug abuse, etc., are all forgivable offenses, but leaving out Jesus or being in a same-sex relationship is a straight ticket to Hell. They may be the biggest problem with black churches-too many of them tend to excuse criminals and gang members. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/35 "2012-05-19T20:34:38Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > I don’t even know where to start. Those generalizations you make of the black religious community are a little…_harsh_. The truth hurts. Try working in sales or retail sometime and dealing with a “pastor.” I can forgive the insistence that everyone is “Dr. The Reverend” whatever–the sort of Pokemon-like accumulation of meaningless degrees from intellectually worthless Bible colleges is hardly unique to any racial group within Christianity. But the thing is that even though these “pastors” live high on the hog from what they leech off their communities, they still demand bribes and kickbacks before they will spend church money on anything, and of course they wave their tax-exempt status around on everything they purchase even though most of it is going to personal use. The adulation that big-hat ladies have for these scumsuckers lets them get.away with murder. When thoroughly corrupt con artists holding inherited sinecures are the only leadership your community has, and they’re robbing you besides, it’s worth denouncing strongly. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/36 "2012-05-19T20:36:06Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > They may be the biggest problem with black churches-too many of them tend to excuse criminals and gang members. Yeah, God knows Jesus would have nothing to do with criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/37 "2012-05-19T20:38:03Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > I don’t even know where to start. Those generalizations you make of the black religious community are a little…_harsh_. I think we can say racist at this point. Are we allowed to say racist in GD? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/38 "2012-05-19T20:40:20Z")
> [@Qin Shi Huangdi](#): > > too many of them tend to excuse criminals and gang members. Bastards! I hear they’ve been consorting with prostitutes and tax collectors too. Let’s have a quick whiparound and fetch a crucifix, shall we? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/39 "2012-05-19T20:50:30Z")
> [@Condescending Robot](#): > > the only leadership your community has Assuming that the black community needs leaders to any degree, that’s [simply not true](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgyl1AdJIXM&feature=related). ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/40 "2012-05-19T20:58:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > They may be the biggest problem with black churches-too many of them tend to excuse criminals and gang members. Kid, you know absolutely nothing about black churches. Nothing. Haven’t been to one, ever. You do not know any black church members well. Not a single one. Your statement is an argument from ignorance, massive, massive ignorance. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad. What’s weird is that you feel so comfortable making arguments that have not a shred of fact behind them. When it comes to issues related to black Americans, a non-trivial segment of the US population loses its collective mind. Merely calling it racism doesn’t quite do it justice, it’s more like a selective psychosis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293.md?page=3)