# Interesting article on Black Atheism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293 "2012-05-18T05:49:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/41 "2012-05-19T20:59:19Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Yeah, God knows Jesus would have nothing to do with criminals. Excuse=/= interacting with. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/42 "2012-05-19T21:04:14Z")
> [@Qin Shi Huangdi](#): > > Excuse Cite? Cite showing a Christian Church that’s kicked out IRS members? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/43 "2012-05-19T21:07:11Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I think we can say racist at this point. Are we allowed to say racist in GD? Nope. 😕 And **Qin Shi Huangdi** , where are you getting this info from? I was talking about the elementary-level thinking of _kids_ when it comes to ‘sinning’ and ‘salvation’. Now, it’s true that Christians would accept a repented murderer but not an atheist. You seem to have issue with black politics, though, not Christianity. Black churches are by nature very political (and it makes sense - if you are a minority, your spiritual leader is probably also a community leader), just like any other minority group. Have you been to a synagogue or a mosque lately? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/44 "2012-05-19T22:04:56Z")
Yes, anyone who objects to people profiting by stealing from and lying to black communities is the real racist. Objecting to a small elite class within black people who devote their lives to preying on the vast majority of black people is just so hateful. Are you guys in the black religion industry yourselves or just handwringing white “liberal Christians” trying to figure out which knee to jerk? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/45 "2012-05-19T22:09:10Z")
I’m still waiting for some backup to your claim that black ministers regularly steal from their members and run some kind of scam. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/46 "2012-05-19T22:13:19Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Yes, anyone who objects to people profiting by stealing from and lying to black communities is the real racist. Objecting to a small elite class within black people who devote their lives to preying on the vast majority of black people is just so hateful. That pretty much describes religious leaders in general. You hand them money in return for nothing, and the reverends/priests/preachers/whatever spend much of it on themselves and on bigger, shiner churches/temples. > [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > I’m still waiting for some backup to your claim that black ministers regularly steal from their members and run some kind of scam. Religion is a scam; that’s part of the point he’s making. People give them money in return for empty promises about an imaginary afterlife. He’s just claiming that black ministers are worse than average. However, whether they are or not, them being a type of priest automatically makes them scam artists; although unlike most scams, in religion sometimes the scam artist actually believes it himself. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/47 "2012-05-19T22:17:40Z")
I don’t think that Protestant churches advocate “give money for eternal salvation”. iirc, of course. Churches provide a benefit to many communities. Black churches are no exception. Here, they regularly run programs for latchkey kids and hand out food. What scam artists, right? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/48 "2012-05-19T22:18:15Z")
Qin Shi Huangdi and Condescending Robot, take your unsupported attacks against black churches to a new thread, (where I would hope you would provide support for your beliefs). You are both off topic and simply using the presence of this thread as an excuse to vent your prejudices. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/49 "2012-05-19T22:31:22Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Churches provide a benefit to many communities. Black churches are no exception. Here, they regularly run programs for latchkey kids and hand out food. And? Many companies and even criminal organizations do “charitable” things to win people over. That doesn’t make it benevolent, that makes it propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/50 "2012-05-19T22:34:40Z")
**Der Trihs** , I don’t know why you’re trying to cover for **Condescending Robot** (unless you agree with him), but this thread was originally about black atheists…and somehow got derailed to a) _all black pastors are con artists_, which you have now turned into _all religious organizations are scams, so technically Condescending Robot’s ethnocentric spewing is correct._ ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/51 "2012-05-19T23:18:20Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > I’m still waiting for some backup to your claim that black ministers regularly steal from their members and run some kind of scam. Your [cite](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s3SNHIH0bs). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/52 "2012-05-20T05:04:39Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > FWIW, I think we should lay off of **Rigamarole**. It can be easy to misread someone’s intentions in a sparse text-only communication medium. Pretty sure his intention was to make a racist joke. That’s pretty much indisputably what he did. The confusing thing, from my perspective, is that a previous poster implied that a smiley would have made the racist joke okay. Anyway, the moderators didn’t punish him for making his racist joke, so it’s hard to see how he is a victim here. [QUOTE=What The … !!!] But you have to remember that joking about certain folks is especially bad. Is it accepted “fact” that blacks on average are especially anti-gay or is that a stereotype? [/QUOTE] Wow. So that had nothing to do with the racist joke that was made but um, good job. [QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] I think we can say racist at this point. Are we allowed to say racist in GD? [/QUOTE] I have a hard time understanding the rules too, because they never seem to make sense, but as far as I can tell they are: it’s not against the rules to say completely racist things, but it’s totally crossing the line to point out that such statements are racist. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/53 "2012-05-20T11:13:27Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > I have a hard time understanding the rules too, because they never seem to make sense, but as far as I can tell they are: it’s not against the rules to say completely racist things, but it’s totally crossing the line to point out that such statements are racist. And who in this thread has been reprimanded for indicating that any given statement has been racist? Let’s stick to the topic and drop any further analysis of other posters’ behaviors or the consequences thereto. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/54 "2012-05-20T11:19:43Z")
IMHO, you are overstating this, mister nyx. Yes, it was in poor taste, but not, on the face of it, necessarily racist. African-Americans that I know or whose writings I’ve read are aware of the general and real problem of absent father figures in many (not all) of their “communities”… and this is something they lament…and they would tend to agree that there are a few situations where wry humor is one way to address this problem. The poster in this thread was, IMHO, wrong about thinking that this thread was the right time and place. That might make him a racist, but we shouldn’t assume so. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/55 "2012-05-20T12:13:13Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Wow. So that had nothing to do with the racist joke that was made but um, good job. One valid point…one question with reference to a topic that was brought up earlier… not related. Sorry I didn’t make it more clear to you but at least you got a chance to see what you wanted to in it. Prejudge much? Care to answer or opine?? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/56 "2012-05-20T13:53:26Z")
I am a black agnostic. No one has ever given me a real hard time about it…even though my mother has cried when her God-bothering pushes me over the edge in conversations. I’m starting to realize that she simply does not how to communicate about difficult topics without pulling out a spiritual bromide or two. It makes me reluctant to talk to her…but then I realize she will never learn a different way of expressing herself if I never talk to her. So I’m glad to see that she’s actually getting better and coming up with ways of relating that have nothing to do with God and Jesus. It can be alienating to be the only non-believer in the room. Because black people do tend to be more overtly religious than other groups, this alienation is more frequently experienced in black social circles. Which means that I’m kind of always in a constant state of differentness (apart from my own idiosyncracies). Different in the greater world as black woman. And then different amongst my own folks for not sharing in the same spiritual language and attitude. Fortunately, most people just assume that I’m a believer and I can “pass”, if need be. I have no problem bowing my head at all the “right” times and going through the motions. Just don’t make me go to church or say the prayer at Thanksgiving dinner. It doesn’t help that religiousity does not to appear to be as attenuated by education/socioeconomic status for black people as it appears to be in whites. My parents are highly educated, but they are as equally devout. It makes spotting like-minded individuals difficult. But my family has never said anything about me burning in hell or anything like that. I have displayed a better-than-average education about the bible, stemming from my own independent reading and religious upbringing, so I think my parents take solace in the fact that at least it’s evident they took their horse to water. And if I decide to return to the flock, I don’t have to start off from scratch. I’m worried that, if I were to die before my parents do, they would insist on having a Very Christian Funeral. I know funerals are more for the living than the dead, but it would still be against my wishes. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/57 "2012-05-20T18:27:23Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s a GOOD thing! > [@](#): > > [S]he _should_ be more upset about atheism than homosexuality. It’s progress. > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t see why you think I’m AGREEING with this mom. I see what you’re saying now, but “She should be more upset about atheism than homosexuality” strongly implies that you approve of that value judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/58 "2012-05-20T19:09:38Z")
Because it used to be that homosexuality was worse than atheism. I think. (: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/59 "2012-05-20T19:50:14Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Because it used to be that homosexuality was worse than atheism. I think. (: Not that I’ve ever seen; I recall seeing parents on _60 Minutes_ openly talking about how they’d prefer their children to be dead rather than atheist. And then there’s the classic argument that it’s “better to kill for Kali” than it is to be a nice person and atheist; because at least if you murder for a “false” goddess you are upholding faith. ---
**Author:** ![threeorange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@threeorange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threeorange)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293/60 "2012-05-21T23:27:57Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I am a black agnostic. No one has ever given me a real hard time about it…even though my mother has cried when her God-bothering pushes me over the edge in conversations. I’m starting to realize that she simply does not how to communicate about difficult topics without pulling out a spiritual bromide or two. It makes me reluctant to talk to her…but then I realize she will never learn a different way of expressing herself if I never talk to her. So I’m glad to see that she’s actually getting better and coming up with ways of relating that have nothing to do with God and Jesus. > > It can be alienating to be the only non-believer in the room. Because black people do tend to be more overtly religious than other groups, this alienation is more frequently experienced in black social circles. Which means that I’m kind of always in a constant state of differentness (apart from my own idiosyncracies). Different in the greater world as black woman. And then different amongst my own folks for not sharing in the same spiritual language and attitude. Fortunately, most people just assume that I’m a believer and I can “pass”, if need be. I have no problem bowing my head at all the “right” times and going through the motions. Just don’t make me go to church or say the prayer at Thanksgiving dinner. > > It doesn’t help that religiousity does not to appear to be as attenuated by education/socioeconomic status for black people as it appears to be in whites. My parents are highly educated, but they are as equally devout. It makes spotting like-minded individuals difficult. > > But my family has never said anything about me burning in hell or anything like that. I have displayed a better-than-average education about the bible, stemming from my own independent reading and religious upbringing, so I think my parents take solace in the fact that at least it’s evident they took their horse to water. And if I decide to return to the flock, I don’t have to start off from scratch. > > I’m worried that, if I were to die before my parents do, they would insist on having a Very Christian Funeral. I know funerals are more for the living than the dead, but it would still be against my wishes. First, **monstro** , thank you for actually addressing the OP, and not using this thread to shovel simplistic stereotypes about black people, black churches, and anyone who believes in god(s), as so many here have. My own experience as a black agnostic is a fairly closeted one. Both of my parents died without my ever “coming out” to them. I know I have told both of my brothers, but they both seem to have forgotten. My black wife is much more vocal about her atheism (she’s actually much more vocal about most things than I am :D). As we both have extended families that seem to have grown (except for certain individuals) exponentially _more_ religious with the passage of time, we spend a lot of time “passing” to avoid what would likely be some aggressive proselytizing. As for the threat of a Christian funeral, my wife and I plan to stipulate secular memorials for ourselves in our wills. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-article-on-black-atheism/622293.md?page=2)