# Interesting 'gay' (word) sighting in 1950s TV program **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 15, 2001, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144 "2001-01-15T14:27:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/1 "2001-01-15T14:27:21Z")
And in a prison context! In “The Happy Stevens” episode of “Amos ‘n’ Andy,” Kingfish and Sapphire are arguing as usual. Kingfish tells her she is grouchy all the time. Sapphire says she’s quite happy. Kingfish responds, “There’s men in the death house [gayer than you](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_271b.html).” Probably just coincidence, but I thought I’d share.😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/2 "2001-01-15T19:46:11Z")
“Darkies” had a certain license in the culture of the time. _cf._ Cab Calloway performing the song, “That Funny Reefer Man” in one of the “Big Broadcast” movies in the 30’s. The earliest overt artistic use of “gay” for “homosexual” that I know of is in the song “We All Wore a Green Carnation” in the 1929 musical, _Bitter Sweet,_ by Noel Coward. (However, the line is cryptic, to be understood only by the _cognoscenti._) ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/3 "2001-01-17T06:14:14Z")
I read that the origins of gay meaning homosexual were in hobo slang in the '30s. The term for a younger hobo who followed an older hobo that acted in a mentor role was a ‘gay cat’. Some folks believed there was a homosexual element to this kind of relationship, and it evolved from there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/4 "2001-01-17T13:09:03Z")
No, it demonstrably did _not_ have its origins in the 30’s, since I just gave an example from 1929. By 1935 it was in at least one printed dictionary of slang, and had appeared (again, cryptically) in the novel, _The Cluck Abroad_ by Tiffany Thayer. I have _heard_ from a gay friend who is well educated, but not a linguist, that it is of urban late-Victorian origin, and is short for “gay lady”. But what I _know_ is that it was established enough to joke about it in 1929 London, and that, judging from the context (_Bitter Sweet_ is a nostalgic period piece), it was already old enough by then not to be seen as a glaring anachronism in a scene set in the 1890’s. ---
**Author:** ![jaimest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@jaimest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaimest)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2001, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/5 "2001-01-18T02:34:47Z")
I recently saw “Bringing Up Baby”, with Cary Grant and Katherine Hepburn, which im sure dates from the 1930’s. Grant uses the word “gay” pretty clearly in a double entendre (while in drag to boot). ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2001, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/6 "2001-01-18T11:11:54Z")
> [@](#): > > No, it demonstrably did not have its origins in the 30’s, since I just gave an example from 1929. I can’t seem to find the lyrics to that song with a [google.com](http://google.com) search, can you quote them here? You said it was a somewhat cryptic, it’s possible that you are misinterpreting it. ---
**Author:** ![Ceejaytee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ceejaytee/32/2956_2.png) [@Ceejaytee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ceejaytee)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2001, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/7 "2001-01-18T15:08:20Z")
**Badtz** : I can’t find all the lyrics but at this site [http://www.musicals101.com/gay4b.htm](http://www.musicals101.com/gay4b.htm) dealing with homosexuality in musicals, they quote from Noel Coward’s Green Carnations (from 1929’s _Bitter Sweet_): Pretty boys, witty boys, You may sneer At our disintegration. Haughty boys, naughty boys, Dear, dear, dear! Swooning with affectation . . . And as we are the reason For the “Nineties” being gay, We all wear a green carnation. The site adds the following editorial remark: (Note: In 1929 only those “in the know” used the word “gay” as a synonym for homosexual, so few would have gotten the joke.) The material before this discusses musical “queens” but this is the first reference to lyrics actually using the word “gay.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/8 "2001-01-19T15:18:31Z")
I can’t find my copy of “Bitter Sweet” at the moment, but the above quotation, albeit rather fragmentary, is sufficient, I think, to demonstrate the point. The song is rather well known in gay/musical circles. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/9 "2001-01-19T17:19:06Z")
IIRC, the green carnation part was also a code. Wilde, among others, was known for his wearing of carnations, and I believe that many gay men wore them in a certain way to indicate being in the club. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/10 "2001-01-19T20:40:46Z")
Gertrude Stein, writing in _Vanity Fair_ in 1922, > [@](#): > > They were…gay, they learned little things that are things in being gay,…they were quite regularly gay. And I don’t think she meant just _happy_ ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2001, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/11 "2001-01-21T18:35:22Z")
I don’t know samclem. What was the context of the quotation from Gertrude Stein? What was the subject of the article? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2001, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/12 "2001-01-21T22:50:54Z")
Arnold, [This link](http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.fauxpress.com/kimball/res/stein.htm++miss+furr&hl=en) will help. I actually got the cite from _Lighter_. To quote a quick snippet from my link– [quote] Elizabeth Fifer identifies a series of recurring images as _private metaphors_ for bodily joy and Stein’s love for her partner Alice Toklas. Insecure about public declarations of passion, Stein turns to household images like sewing, cooking and, especially, sweets, jams, cakes and such to compensate for clearer expression. In _Miss Furr and Miss Skeene_ we read, _To be regularly gay was to do every day the gay thing that they did every day._ I don’t think that Stein was any less explicit about her homosexuality than the Noel Coward’s _Bittersweet_ reference. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2001, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/13 "2001-01-21T23:37:18Z")
Wilde actually put a reference to the Green Carnation Club in his original version of “The Importance of Being Ernest,” which was a four-act play, not a three-act. The Stratford Festival put on the four-act version last year. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/14 "2001-01-22T19:34:05Z")
Fair enough samclem. The link you provide states clearly that Gertrude Stein was using the word “gay” to mean homosexual. So far it seems you win the prize for finding the earliest documented use of the word “gay” used with that meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/15 "2001-01-23T01:16:38Z")
You know, we’re on the _Straight Dope_ Message Board, people - don’t you read this site? Let’s see what Cecil himself says about it ([“How did “gay” come to mean “homosexual”?”](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_271b.html): > [@](#): > > As early as 1637 the Oxford English Dictionary gives one meaning as “addicted to social pleasures and dissipations. Often euphemistically: Of loose and immoral life”–whence, presumably, the term “gay blade.” In the 1800s the term was used to refer to female prostitutes; to “gay it” meant “to copulate.” > > By 1935 the word “geycat,” meaning a homosexual boy, had found its way into print, giving a clue as to the direction things were starting to go. Sure enough, by 1955 “gay” had acquired its present meaning, as P. Wildeblood notes in Against Law: "Most of the officers had been “gay’ … an American euphemism for homosexual.” Actually, gays had probably been using the term among themselves long before. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/16 "2001-01-23T03:26:01Z")
**Cecil** said > [@](#): > > By 1935 the word “geycat,” meaning a homosexual boy, had found its way into print, giving a clue as to the direction things were starting to go. While Cecil is right(of course) this is taking a word (gaycat)which had been in use with tramps and itinerant criminals to mean an amateur in the business and/or a young boy who acted as lookout and could be found in print since the 1890’s. It still had that same meaning in all cites which I could find in _Lighter_ until the 1935 cite which was from a book? on prision slang which used the term as _geycat_ _sic_ and said it was a homosexual boy(which it probably was by that time). Only cite for geycat or gaycat meaning homosexual. My reading of _Lighter_ would indicate that homosexual men and women probably used the word gay to describe themselves to each other and their community from the 1890’s at least. The **public** , on the other hand, used words such as _fairy_ to describe homosexuals, usually men. The term _fairy_ used in this sense can be found as early as 1895 in _Amer. Journ. Psyc._ from _Lighter_. ---
**Author:** ![AvidReader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@AvidReader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AvidReader)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/17 "2003-03-17T13:46:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John W. Kennedy \* > \*\*" > > The earliest overt artistic use of “gay” for “homosexual” that I know of is in the song “We All Wore a Green Carnation” in the 1929 musical, _Bitter Sweet,_ by Noel Coward. (However, the line is cryptic, to be understood only by the _cognoscenti._) \*\* One must be especially knowledgeable in what? Songs of 20’s,? Noel Coward’s work? Gay literature/matters in general? If you have the partiular line at hand, would you post? I’m interested in determining if I’m “especially knowledgeable in this particular area”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-gay-word-sighting-in-1950s-tv-program/50144/18 "2003-03-17T16:25:39Z")
It’s quoted above – and _everybody_ today knows what only a few did in 1929. (Speaking of “Green Carnation”, I once used it as the basis of a _Babylon 5_ filk.)