# Interesting hard data on UK Christian Belief
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 15, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916 "2012-02-15T12:02:58Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/1 "2012-02-15T12:02:58Z")
In a week when religious freedom and privilege have been hot topics, we have just had a fascinating insight into the beliefs and motivations of UK Christians.
A little background. We had a census taken last year and the results are still to be published but in the same week of the Census the Richard Dawkins Foundation commissioned Ipso/Mori to conduct a poll on those who \*self identified \*as Christians in the census.
Press releases [here for part 1](http://richarddawkins.net/articles/644941-rdfrs-uk-ipsos-mori-poll-1-how-religious-are-uk-christians) and [here for part 2](http://richarddawkins.net/articles/644942-rdfrs-uk-ipsos-mori-poll-2-uk-christians-oppose-special-influence-for-religion-in-public-policy) Some interesting stats. and here is just a little snippet.
[ul]
[li]54% of those polled identify as Christian and when that group were questioned further…[/li][li] [/li][li]Asked where they seek most guidance in questions of right and wrong, only 10% of Census-Christians said it was from religious teachings or beliefs[/li]
[li]37% of them have never or almost never prayed outside a church service[/li]
[li]Just a third (32%) believe Jesus was physically resurrected; half (49%) do not think of him as the Son of God[/li][/ul]
So the source is robust, the data is solid and the conclusions are pretty much in line with my impressions of living in the UK. A very, very small proportion of the UK are Christians in any functional sense. They identify as such mainly for cultural and historical reasons and it is not an important part of their lives.
It is something often suspected but we’ve been missing hard data on it. This gives weight to the argument against religious privilege.
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### Author:  [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/2 "2012-02-15T12:18:59Z")
That matches my impression of the UK pretty well. Most people don’t practice of even think about religion and if prompted will give some sort of vague ‘I believe in something but I don’t know what’ answer, which I assume simply means that they don’t care either way 🙂
As a little addendum the Right Honourable Baroness Warsi made some pretty annoying comments yesterday after a meeting with the Pope:
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9083287/Baroness-Warsi-attacks-lilberal-elite.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9083287/Baroness-Warsi-attacks-lilberal-elite.html)
> [@](#):
>
> One of the arguments of the liberal elite is that faith and reason are incompatible. But they don’t realise, as the Holy Father has argued for many years, that faith and reason go hand in hand.
Bollocks they do! Keep your fairy tales out of public policy please.
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### Author:  [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/3 "2012-02-15T12:27:02Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#):
>
> That matches my impression of the UK pretty well. Most people don’t practice of even think about religion and if prompted will give some sort of vague ‘I believe in something but I don’t know what’ answer, which I assume simply means that they don’t care either way 🙂
Exactly, which prompts the question, Who the hell does Warsi think she is representing? This data shows that few people actually want religion mixed up in politics.
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### Author:  [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/4 "2012-02-15T12:57:45Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#):
>
> Exactly, which prompts the question, Who the hell does Warsi think she is representing?
She probably thinks she is representing British Muslims, who, by definition,
(1) are religious
(2) are not Christians.
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### Author:  [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/5 "2012-02-15T13:01:31Z")
[UK Polling Report’s](http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/4813) interesting assessment of the survey.
> [@](#):
>
> Exactly how one defines what constitutes a Christian is an unanswerable question – you may equally well define being Christian as what people believe or by how they define themselves. What we can say with some certainty is that a fair proportion of people who put Christian on the census form don’t believe in a personal God, don’t consider themselves to be religious or don’t believe in some of the core tenets of Christianity.
>
> This means that while there are other interesting questions on the poll, one can’t really use them to say X percentage of British Christians think this or that, because it is impossible to define British Christians. If one defines them as people who put Christian on the census form then you’d find only 54% believe in a personal God. If you define them as people who attend church at least once a month I expect you’d find the vast majority believe in a personal God. This is the difficulty of saying anything about ill-defined populations.
>
> At the end of the day a lot of the survey and the PR around it seems to be aimed at knocking down the strawman argument that all those who put Christian on the census are devout, church attending, bible believing Christians when it is fairly clear from the outset that they are not. That’s not to say that the strawman argument of 72% of people are Christians so you should do this hasn’t actually cropped up in the political debate before – it has, and I’m sure it will continue to do so in the future.
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### Author:  [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/6 "2012-02-15T14:04:36Z")
In the UK ticking the Christian box in the census is practically the default position. Until recently I’ve done it myself despite not being religious. It is in no way an indication I/we are devout or give a flying rats ass about religion except as a way to get our kids into the best schools (which are often Faith based as they are allowed to practice selection and can discriminate in favour of church going families).
It certainly does not mean we want to see it up front and in our faces in public life even if we’re quite happy to have its harmless trappings as part of the pagentry of state occasions.
But what we do have since 2001 is greater reference to it as an identity response to real or imagined islamism and immigration.
It is the feeling that we are threatened by those who (real or imagined) do take religion so seriously it is their primary identity/loyalty.
Since that time there has been an [upsurge in evangelical christianty](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100019857/im-not-surprised-evangelical-christianity-is-on-the-rise/).
Again this is connected with the impact of immigration (not to mention US and African missionary work).
> [@](#):
>
> Professor Mike Kenny of IPPR said: 'The research shows that recent waves of inward migration have given a boost to some of the UK’s established faith communities at a time when Britain’s society and culture are generally more secular, and smaller numbers of the indigenous population are regularly attending churches.
>
> ‘Recent migration trends are altering the faith map of the UK. Their biggest impact is being felt in some of our largest cities: London above all, where a rich mosaic of different faith communities has come into being.’
My strong impression is that the UK is becoming more secular but there is a growing vocal religious minority ready to nail themselves up if they aren’t allowed to discriminate against gays or have prayers minuted in council meetings (when they can quite legally hold prayers before the start of the meeting, just not during it) etc.
Yet despite all this persecution the local evangelical group is in the town centre every weekend spewing their hatred of gays and other sinners unmolested.
I’ve yet to see an atheist counterpart. Nor am I aware of reserved seats for atheists in The House of Lords.
Yet should Dawkins open his mouth or a There is no God’ poster get stuck on the side of a bus then it’s hammering time.
As usual what ‘christianity is under attack’ means is ‘being called on our bullshit’.
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/7 "2012-02-15T14:05:15Z")
> [@Giles](#):
>
> She probably thinks she is representing British Muslims, who, by definition,
> (1) are religious
> (2) are not Christians.
It’s funny that you would include (1) in a thread discussing the fact that many Britons who self-identify as Christians are not religious. Why do you think Britons who self-identify as Muslims are, by definition, religious?
Anyway, I agree with (2).
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### Author:  [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/8 "2012-02-15T14:09:43Z")
> [@RitterSport](#):
>
> Why do you think Britons who self-identify as Muslims are, by definition, religious?
[Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html)
> [@](#):
>
> Four out of 10 British Muslims want sharia law introduced into parts of the country, a survey reveals today.
Serious enough for you?
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### Author:  [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/9 "2012-02-15T14:25:48Z")
Just a slight nitpick. The pollsters questioned people who said, when asked, that that they self identified as Christians in the census. So they asked people what their answer was on the census, then asked further questions of those who answered Christian. I am sure the UK census does not give out data that associates names with answers on the census form. That would be criminal in the US.
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### Author:  [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/10 "2012-02-15T14:39:37Z")
> [@shiftless](#):
>
> Just a slight nitpick. The pollsters questioned people who said, when asked, that that they self identified as Christians in the census. So they asked people what their answer was on the census, then asked further questions of those who answered Christian. I am sure the UK census does not give out data that associates names with answers on the census form. That would be criminal in the US.
😕
What in that process would require census data being given out?
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### Author:  [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/11 "2012-02-15T14:40:45Z")
> [@shiftless](#):
>
> Just a slight nitpick. The pollsters questioned people who said, when asked, that that they self identified as Christians in the census. So they asked people what their answer was on the census, then asked further questions of those who answered Christian. I am sure the UK census does not give out data that associates names with answers on the census form. That would be criminal in the US.
Correct, this needs to be clarified as some people are picking up the percentages quoted and imagining that they apply to the whole population…not so.
e.g. only 10% of 54% said they got their ideas of right and wrong from religious teachings or beliefs.
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### Author:  [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/12 "2012-02-15T14:57:51Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#):
>
> Correct, this needs to be clarified as some people are picking up the percentages quoted and imagining that they apply to the whole population…not so.
> e.g. only 10% of 54% said they got their ideas of right and wrong from religious teachings or beliefs.
> [@](#):
>
> Unless otherwise stated, the results are based on 1,136 responses on a face-to-face survey conducted with those who say they were recorded as Christian in the 2011 Census, or would have recorded themselves as Christian in the 2011 Census.
[link](http://c3414097.r97.cf0.rackcdn.com/IpsosMORI_RDFRS-UK_Survey_Topline_14-02-2012.pdf)
I like it that 16% of these self-identified Christians don’t believe in God and 4% the same for Jesus.
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### Author:  [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/13 "2012-02-15T15:05:40Z")
> [@tagos](#):
>
> 😕
>
> What in that process would require census data being given out?
This statement in the first link:
> [@](#):
>
> RDFRS UK commissioned Ipsos MORI to carry out the research in the week immediately following the 2011 UK Census. It explored in depth the extent to which adults recorded as Christian in the 2011 UK Census (or who would have been recorded as Christian, if they had answered the question) believe, know about, practise and are influenced by Christianity, as well as their reasons for having described themselves as Christian in the Census.
suggests that pollsters contacted people based on how they answered the census. My nitpick is not about the data but the suggestion that pollsters have access to individual information from the census forms, which would be illegal in the US and, I hope, illegal in the UK. The pollsters did not visit people who answered Christian, or anything else, on their census form because they have no way of knowing that.
That does add another layer of uncertainty to the poll data when compared to the census data but that wasn’t my point.
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### Author:  [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/14 "2012-02-15T15:07:35Z")
> [@shiftless](#):
>
> This statement in the first link:
>
> suggests that pollsters contacted people based on how they answered the census.
No it doesn’t. At the risk of repeating myself:
> [@](#):
>
> Unless otherwise stated, the results are based on 1,136 responses on a face-to-face survey conducted **with those who say they** were recorded as Christian in the 2011 Census, or would have recorded themselves as Christian in the 2011 Census.
The link I provided even gives the screener questions that were used to identify those to survey.
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### Author:  [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/15 "2012-02-15T15:38:53Z")
I’m not surprised by some of these results, but I’m very surprised to see that 49% do not believe Jesus is the son of God. As I see it there is no way to be a Christian in any sense of the word without believing that. Unless 49% of British “Christians” are so ignorant they don’t understand the most basic and central belief of Christianity, I can only assume something is wrong somewhere with the polls. Either half of those who listed themselves as Christian in the census are practically lying (not just ticking it because of some vague belief, but with NO belief in it at all) or the Richard Dawkins Foundation poll was not conducted well. The latter seems most likely to me.
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### Author:  [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/16 "2012-02-15T15:48:15Z")
> [@Bozuit](#):
>
> I’m not surprised by some of these results, but I’m very surprised to see that 49% do not believe Jesus is the son of God. As I see it there is no way to be a Christian in any sense of the word without believing that. Unless 49% of British “Christians” are so ignorant they don’t understand the most basic and central belief of Christianity, I can only assume something is wrong somewhere with the polls. Either half of those who listed themselves as Christian in the census are practically lying (not just ticking it because of some vague belief, but with NO belief in it at all) or the Richard Dawkins Foundation poll was not conducted well. The latter seems most likely to me.
English Anglican Christianity is very weak tea even among the clergy. They are ticking it because of ‘some vague belief’. That phrase practically defines Church of England theology. Being C of E has nothing whatsoever to do with belief in any tenet of Christianity or caring one fig one way or the other and being a nominal Christian in England is nothing like being one in the USA where religion is actually taken seriously.
The poll was conducted by MORI and not liking their results is not grounds for thinking that MORI have suddenly forgotten how to conduct a standard poll.
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### Author:  [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/17 "2012-02-15T16:11:37Z")
> [@Bozuit](#):
>
> I’m not surprised by some of these results, but I’m very surprised to see that 49% do not believe Jesus is the son of God. As I see it there is no way to be a Christian in any sense of the word without believing that. Unless 49% of British “Christians” are so ignorant they don’t understand the most basic and central belief of Christianity, I can only assume something is wrong somewhere with the polls. Either half of those who listed themselves as Christian in the census are practically lying (not just ticking it because of some vague belief, but with NO belief in it at all) or the Richard Dawkins Foundation poll was not conducted well. The latter seems most likely to me.
I suspect that those are people who check Christian because they come from a Christian tradition. They celebrate Christmas with gift giving and caroling and crackers, and celebrate Easter with Eggs etc. Basically there is a lot of Christian tradition one can be a part of without actually believing the doctrine.
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### Author:  [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/18 "2012-02-15T16:13:01Z")
> [@Bozuit](#):
>
> I’m not surprised by some of these results, but I’m very surprised to see that 49% do not believe Jesus is the son of God. As I see it there is no way to be a Christian in any sense of the word without believing that. Unless 49% of British “Christians” are so ignorant they don’t understand the most basic and central belief of Christianity, I can only assume something is wrong somewhere with the polls. Either half of those who listed themselves as Christian in the census are practically lying (not just ticking it because of some vague belief, but with NO belief in it at all) or the Richard Dawkins Foundation poll was not conducted well. The latter seems most likely to me.
I suspect that those are people who check Christian because they come from a Christian tradition. They celebrate Christmas with gift giving and caroling and crackers, and celebrate Easter with Eggs, believe in love thy neighbor etc. Basically there is a lot of Christian tradition one can be a part of without actually believing the doctrine.
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### Author:  [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/19 "2012-02-15T16:22:06Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#):
>
> I suspect that those are people who check Christian because they come from a Christian tradition. They celebrate Christmas with gift giving and caroling and crackers, and celebrate Easter with Eggs, believe in love thy neighbor etc. Basically there is a lot of Christian tradition one can be a part of without actually believing the doctrine.
Quite. The C of E is one big club we’re all born into. It’s only when women or gays start getting uppity that it summons up any enthusiasm for doctrine.
> [@](#):
>
> In a poll conducted by YouGov in March 2011 on behalf of the BHA, when asked the census question ‘What is your religion?’, 61% of people in England and Wales ticked a religious box (53.48% Christian and 7.22% other) while 39% ticked ‘No religion’.
>
> When the same sample was asked the follow-up question ‘Are you religious?’, only 29% of the same people said ‘Yes’ while 65% said ‘No’, meaning over half of those whom the census would count as having a religion said they were not religious.
[link](http://www.humanism.org.uk/campaigns/religion-and-belief-surveys-statistics)
We’re maybe taught to recite The Lords Prayer at school and get taught a few Bible stories (unless you go to a real hard core religious school). And if you asked us to name the Holy Trinity I suspect The Easter Bunny would get a lot of mentions.
It’s pretty much a loose cultural identity thing.
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### Author:  [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/20 "2012-02-15T16:28:53Z")
> [@Bozuit](#):
>
> I’m not surprised by some of these results, but I’m very surprised to see that 49% do not believe Jesus is the son of God. As I see it there is no way to be a Christian in any sense of the word without believing that.
One can follow what a person says without accepting their divinity. I think Granny Weatherwax is wise beyond measure but I don’t actually think she exists. (though the genius of Terry Pratchett is such that we all _know_ a Granny Weatherwax)
> [@](#):
>
> Unless 49% of British “Christians” are so ignorant they don’t understand the most basic and central belief of Christianity,
No, this is one of the reasons for the survey in the first place. People in the UK tick “christian” without giving any real thought to it, they certainly aren’t religious in any meaningful sense (see the other poll results) and yet the religious powers use this inflated number in order to justify their privileged positions.
> [@](#):
>
> I can only assume something is wrong somewhere with the polls. Either half of those who listed themselves as Christian in the census are practically lying (not just ticking it because of some vague belief, but with NO belief in it at all) or the Richard Dawkins Foundation poll was not conducted well. The latter seems most likely to me.
It was a MORI poll, not an RDF poll. You can be absolutely sure that this was rigorous. And take it from those of us in the UK, this is bang-on with our own personal experiences.
I know of very few religious people. Those few I do know disagree on the more homophobic and sexist proclamations of their religious leaders (muslims seem to be the exception to this). I certainly know of people who would claim to be christian just because they think Jesus (whether real or a character) said some nice stuff that they broadly agree with. They would be horrified to think that some bishop sees fit to speak for them.
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