# Interesting hard data on UK Christian Belief **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916 "2012-02-15T12:02:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/61 "2012-02-16T16:40:31Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > [Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html) > Serious enough for you? No-one picked up on this, so I should point out that this is not quite as “serious” as people imagine. There are already a number of _Jewish_ courts in the UK. Essentially they act as a mutually-respected authority in situations such as divorce. All parties must voluntarily agree to arbitration via this court. Their rulings are legally binding, but the powers of such courts, and the kinds of cases they can rule on, are very limited. If some of the Muslims in that poll were advocating a similar set up for Sharia law, I certainly wouldn’t consider that an extremist position. (That said I would agree with your view that british muslims tend to be much more religious than british christians (if we define christian/muslim as someone that ticks that box in a poll)). ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/62 "2012-02-16T16:53:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No-one picked up on this, so I should point out that this is not quite as “serious” as people imagine. > > There are already a number of _Jewish_ courts in the UK. > > Essentially they act as a mutually-respected authority in situations such as divorce. All parties must voluntarily agree to arbitration via this court. > Their rulings are legally binding, but the powers of such courts, and the kinds of cases they can rule on, are very limited. > > If some of the Muslims in that poll were advocating a similar set up for Sharia law, I certainly wouldn’t consider that an extremist position. > > (That said I would agree with your view that british muslims tend to be much more religious than british christians (if we define christian/muslim as someone that ticks that box in a poll)). It’s a hijack but I don’t for one second believe respondents had anything soft and fluffy in mind. Even if they had - thin end of an unpleasant wedge. Nor do I agree that any religion should get a say in justice dispensation. Especially one with inbuilt biases against one sex and a hatred of non-heterosexuals. I’d rather the Blasphemy Laws were abolished totally, all funding ended for religious schools and all religious based justice systems stopped. ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/63 "2012-02-16T17:10:25Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > And it’s not that anyone is criticizing British Christians, it’s just that over here in the US, it’s seen as shocking that only about half of Brits would self-identify as Christian. We Americans can’t even imagine that. > > Then what piles the extra shock on top, is that of those self-identified British Christians, only half of those even accept the basic tenets of Christianity. To most Americans, if you don’t actually believe that Jesus was the son of God and died to save humanity of its sins, then you’re not what we would call a Christian. So this poll is telling us that only about a quarter of Brits are what we would call “Christians.” That’s unimaginable here. > > 75 to 80% of Americans literally believe that Jesus was the son of God and his death has absolved us of our sins. If you admit, over here, to NOT believing these things, then you’re automatically in the out-group. You know while reading this thread I realised I don’t know anyone who actually goes to Church or ever actually says anything about their beliefs ( I am from the UK by the way to clarify). I used to work with a born again Christian about 15 years ago but that is the last person I could really say I sort of knew that was obviously Christian. Of course it’s possible someone I know is religious it’s just not something that would ever really come up. I guess this is why these boards seem a little weird to me sometimes as there seem to be so many threads on the subject of religion. I think with the UK it is just religion has become really unimportant in most people’s lives to the extent they just don’t think about it rather than being activity atheist. Actually I should add really most of the above is related to Christians. I do work with some Muslims and due to them not drinking alcohol and some of their festivals they are fairly obviously religious. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/64 "2012-02-16T18:27:56Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > …I’m somewhat surprised Dawkins seemed not to remember the full original title of On the Origin of Species. The title is really clunky - “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life” - and it was later shortened to just on the Origin of Species, but he had to know it was a ‘gotcha’ question and should have given the title it first had, rather than paraphrasing it. Is that it? I was going to guess “On the Origin of Species, or How I Learned to Love the Bomb.” I guess I have to brush up on my atheist liturgy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/65 "2012-02-16T19:38:45Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Then what piles the extra shock on top, is that of those self-identified British Christians, only half of those even accept the basic tenets of Christianity. To most Americans, if you don’t actually believe that Jesus was the son of God and died to save humanity of its sins, then you’re not what we would call a Christian. So this poll is telling us that only about a quarter of Brits are what we would call “Christians.” That’s unimaginable here. Come to think of it, I guess it’s like asking someone hereabouts whether he’s Jewish – and then going on to later ask him whether he believes in God. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/66 "2012-02-16T20:27:52Z")
I suppose I didn’t personally notice C of E being treated as a “club” the way some people say. I mean of course I’m aware that a lot of people are christened and have C of E weddings etc. but I didn’t think those people would actually call themselves Christians without believing it. I must just be wrong on that point. Maybe we should just become an officially secular country. > [@tagos](#): > > I’d rather the Blasphemy Laws were abolished totally, all funding ended for religious schools and all religious based justice systems stopped. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/67 "2012-02-16T20:40:18Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Maybe we should just become an officially secular country. I’d support that, Trouble is, the religious seem to have difficulty understanding what secular actually means. It means equality for all and an end to privilege…hmmm, actually perhaps they understand just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/68 "2012-02-16T20:43:26Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > But are they truly Scostmen? > > At some point you are begging the question if a group that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ, however they interpret them, cannot rightly call themselves Christians. That’s the same line of thinking that leads to some Evangelicals claiming that Catholics are not Christians. Religions have defined meanings and doctrines, as anyone who has studied them in depth will be aware of. How someone chooses to identify themselves, despite their beliefs, doesn’t change that. More to the point, with your incredibly wide interpretation of Christianity then all Muslims are Christians too. They believe that Allah and the Jewish/Christian god are the same, that previous revelations are valid but became corrupted, that Jesus was a prophet also and was indeed born of a virginal conception, but they don’t believe he’s the son of god because god is indivisible and cannot have a child. So, as I said, using your logic they’re Christian too, even if they don’t call themselves that and their religion goes beyond that. Modify the theological issues in this paragraph and you have a similar situation with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons, so unless you want to call Muslims Christians then I think your argument fails.This is why I’m saying such an ill-defined classification is pretty unhelpful, not because I’m playing one true Scotsman. Want to mix something up from the buffet of religious belief in a way that doesn’t sit with doctrine and existing orthodoxy? Go for it, found a new religion, it’s easy and you get a tax break from the US government. Call yourself Jews for Jesus or something… oh wait, been done. As for one sect of Christianity calling another “not Christians”, that really isn’t the same thing, that’s just plain old denominationalism which happens in lots of religions. If you’re an atheist and/or see religions as social constructs only then there is no merit in considering one interpretation better than another. By all means look at [this diagram](http://thejesusquestion.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/denominations1.png) and please tell me which Christianity is correct. I’m extremely interested in religions not because I think they’re true, or because they have anything to teach us about how to live our lives, but because they represent billions of man hours of human thought, practice and labour and can’t be dismissed as irrelevant (I’m also a big fan of history for the same reason). > [@Mijin](#): > > No-one picked up on this, so I should point out that this is not quite as “serious” as people imagine. > > There are already a number of _Jewish_ courts in the UK. > > Essentially they act as a mutually-respected authority in situations such as divorce. All parties must voluntarily agree to arbitration via this court. > Their rulings are legally binding, but the powers of such courts, and the kinds of cases they can rule on, are very limited. > > If some of the Muslims in that poll were advocating a similar set up for Sharia law, I certainly wouldn’t consider that an extremist position. > > (That said I would agree with your view that british muslims tend to be much more religious than british christians (if we define christian/muslim as someone that ticks that box in a poll)). I could have made a similar point to this but I’m kind of sick of refuting this ridiculous story for the umpteenth time, so thanks for doing it for me. Although… > [@tagos](#): > > It’s a hijack but I don’t for one second believe respondents had anything soft and fluffy in mind. Even if they had - thin end of an unpleasant wedge. Nor do I agree that any religion should get a say in justice dispensation. Especially one with inbuilt biases against one sex and a hatred of non-heterosexuals. _Sigh_ Fine, but you can’t allow religiously based civil arbitration for one religion and not for another, particularly when one religion has been doing it for about a century already without the whole of society collapsing into a theocracy. Unless you want to argue that Muslims are, as a class of people, more prone to attempting to subvert the law and impose their own beliefs on others through the legal system, of course. If you do please provide some evidence for this. Yes this question could be considered as leading and somewhat inflammatory, but I think it kind of sucks that Muslims are being treated like modern day [conversos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversos). I despise their religious beliefs on the whole, but I don’t think they should all automatically be a suspect class because of it. Again, let’s have religious pluralism or let’s not, and if you’re voting for not then you’ve just essentially sanctioned the USSR’s policy on religious freedom (and I tend to find the USSR provides few solutions for a society in which I’d ever choose to live, this one included). > [@](#): > > I’d rather the Blasphemy Laws were abolished totally [Congratulations.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Justice_and_Immigration_Act_2008#Blasphemy) > [@](#): > > all funding ended for religious schools and all religious based justice systems stopped. If you have the money to fund a compulsory purchase order for all the land owned by the Catholic or Anglican Church on which over 7000 schools sit (34% of all 22,500 English schools), please feel free to put it towards this cause. As long as the Churches have that leverage over the school system we ain’t going nowhere on this issue. I sympathise with your perspective, but that’s the realpolitik I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/69 "2012-02-16T21:01:13Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > More to the point, with your incredibly wide interpretation of Christianity then all Muslims are Christians too. Well, no. Because they don’t identify themselves as such. But if you call yourself a Christian and profess to live your life according to the teachings of Jesus Christ then, in my book, you deserve to be taken at your word regardless of your particular metaphysical or eschatological beliefs. I take it that your position, then, is that the majority of self-professed Christians in the UK are not actually Christians? ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/70 "2012-02-16T21:32:38Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Well, no. Because they don’t identify themselves as such. But if you call yourself a Christian and profess to live your life according to the teachings of Jesus Christ then, in my book, you deserve to be taken at your word regardless of your particular metaphysical or eschatological beliefs. > > I take it that your position, then, is that the majority of self-professed Christians in the UK are not actually Christians? Absolutely not, I have no way of knowing that and it would take a lot more than one poll like this to convince me of anything like that. My point is not that they’re not Christians according to an arbitrary standard set by me, but it would appear there are a lot of people surveyed who profess to be Christians whose beliefs are at odds with the religion they are part of. If the people surveyed lived in, for example, a gnostic tradition country where belief in the divinity of Jesus was not the norm then saying they didn’t believe he was the son of god wouldn’t be at odds with their Christian identity, would it? Take another example - if you did a survey of Catholics and asked them about their belief, and a sizeable number said they didn’t believe in transubstantiation, or papal infallibility, or in the concept of intercession, or any of the other core beliefs of Catholicism, on what basis would you classify them as Catholics? If you find a horse with black and white stripes that lives in Africa it’s not a horse, it’s a Zebra. Regarding your point on Muslims not being Christian, I agree that how they identify themselves is a big part of it, but bear in mind for a long time Islam was considered a Christian heresy for the exact reasons I’ve given. You can find relatively modern books that discuss it in such terms, in fact. Ultimately I’m not arguing that they’re Christians, they’re not, the religions are too far apart. But I would apply the test to Mormons and JWs that I did in my previous paragraph and, on that basis, I can’t include them in the sphere of Christian sects. This is a matter of scholarly debate though, you could construct an argument that they are, and it’s not clear cut one way or the other. It’s only until relatively recently that Mormons publicly stated they were Christians though, when they had enough autonomy and physical/cultural isolation to do what they wanted they weren’t so fussed at being considered just another sect. It’s also for that reason that I’m not AS bothered by a group or individual’s self identification if their practices/beliefs vary too much from the defined doctrine of said religion. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/71 "2012-02-16T22:51:15Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Take another example - if you did a survey of Catholics and asked them about their belief, and a sizeable number said they didn’t believe in transubstantiation, or papal infallibility, or in the concept of intercession, or any of the other core beliefs of Catholicism, on what basis would you classify them as Catholics? If you find a horse with black and white stripes that lives in Africa it’s not a horse, it’s a Zebra. Well, that’s sort of an interesting question, I think. If a huge percentage of the laity, to use a particularly relevant example, believes that using contraception is not sinful but the Catholic leadership avers that it is, which is more reflective of “Catholic belief regarding contraception”? I can see good arguments on both sides. In fact, I would hazard that if you did a poll at a random mass, even in the relatively orthodox US, asking if the Eucharist literally turned into the body and blood of Jesus, a huge percentage would say “no”. That is, I’m not sure that the doctrine of transubstantiation is as critical to Catholicism as you (and, no doubt, the Pope) would like it to be. Similarly, if everybody around me decides to call the horse with black and white stripes a horse, then who am I to say “no no no, that’s a zebra”. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/72 "2012-02-17T09:28:46Z")
You seem to be approaching this from a perspective of thinking what people believe first, and then what the agreed definitions of things are second. Fine if you want to do that, but I’d posit it’s not a good approach to take when trying to make meaningful statements about what religions are. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/73 "2012-02-17T09:39:17Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > My point is not that they’re not Christians according to an arbitrary standard set by me, but it would appear there are a lot of people surveyed who profess to be Christians whose beliefs are at odds with the religion they are part of. Well, that’s rather the point Dawkins is making. They aren’t really Christians in belief, only in some hazy, lazy self-identification and therefore the militant religious minority should stop banging on about how we are a Christian country. We’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/74 "2012-02-17T09:53:13Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Well, that’s rather the point Dawkins is making. They aren’t really Christians in belief, only in some hazy, lazy self-identification and therefore the militant religious minority should stop banging on about how we are a Christian country. We’re not. And, just to be clear, I’d agree with you. 🙂 Doesn’t stop us having appointed representatives of Christianity in the Lords though, that grates of me more than pretty much anything else. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/75 "2012-02-17T10:37:30Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I could have made a similar point to this but I’m kind of sick of refuting this ridiculous story for the umpteenth time, so thanks for doing it for me. Although… > > _Sigh_ [Civitas report on UK Sharia](http://www.civitas.org.uk/press/prcs91.php) > [@](#): > > Most reports on sharia courts cite five, working in London, Manchester, Bradford, Birmingham and Nuneaton. However, in his research for this report, Denis MacEoin has uncovered at least 85, operating largely out of mosques. It is extremely difficult to find out what goes on in these courts, so MacEoin reproduces a range of fatwas issued by popular online fatwa sites, run out of or accessed through mosques in the UK, and in some cases, as was revealed in the earlier Civitas report Music, Chess and Other Sins, even from UK Muslim schools. These online fatwas can give a good indication of the rulings of sharia courts in Britain. > [@](#): > > ‘Among the rulings … we find some that advise illegal actions and others that transgress human rights standards as they are applied by British courts. Here are some examples: a Muslim woman may not under any circumstances marry a non-Muslim man unless he converts to Islam; such a woman’s children will be separated from her until she marries a Muslim man; polygamous marriage (i.e. two to four wives) is considered legal… a husband has conjugal rights over his wife, and she should normally answer his summons to have sex (but she cannot summon him for the same reason); a woman may not stay with her husband if he leaves Islam; non-Muslims may be deprived of their share in an inheritance… a wife has no property rights in the event of divorce… sharia law must override the judgements of British courts; rights of child custody may differ from those in UK law… taking out insurance is prohibited, even if required by law; there is no requirement to register a marriage according to the law of the country… a Muslim lawyer has to act contrary to UK law where it contradicts sharia … women are restricted in leaving their homes and driving cars… sharia law of legitimacy contradicts the Legitimacy Act 1976; a woman may not leave her home without her husband’s consent (which may constitute false imprisonment); legal adoption is forbidden… a woman may not retain custody of her child after seven (for a boy) or nine (for a girl)… fighting the Americans and British is a religious duty; recommendation of severe punishments for homosexuals… a woman cannot marry without the presence (and permission) of a male guardian… an illegitimate child may not inherit from his/her father.’ (pp.70-72) Frack that for a game of soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/76 "2012-02-17T10:56:55Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Absolutely not, I have no way of knowing that and it would take a lot more than one poll like this to convince me of anything like that. My point is not that they’re not Christians according to an arbitrary standard set by me, but it would appear there are a lot of people surveyed who profess to be Christians **whose beliefs are at odds with the religion they are part of.** If the people surveyed lived in, for example, a gnostic tradition country where belief in the divinity of Jesus was not the norm then saying they didn’t believe he was the son of god wouldn’t be at odds with their Christian identity, would it? > > Take another example - if you did a survey of Catholics and asked them about their belief, and **a sizeable number said they didn’t believe in transubstantiation** , or papal infallibility, or in the concept of intercession, or any of the other core beliefs of Catholicism, on what basis would you classify them as Catholics? (bolding mine) Surely the fact that a sizeable number of (hypothetical) Catholics don’t believe in transubstantiation means it is definitively a Catholic belief? Religions grow, change and evolve - there isn’t a set of In Rules and Out Rules that stays the same forever (that doesn’t mean the rules don’t exist, but that they may not be the same as they were 50 years, 200 years, 2800 years ago). If, in your example, Catholicism has come to a point where a large chunk of Catholics don’t believe in transubstantiation, then that’s a statement about where Catholicism is as a movement, not who is and isn’t Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/77 "2012-02-17T12:35:16Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > My point is not that they’re not Christians according to an arbitrary standard set by me, but it would appear there are a lot of people surveyed who profess to be Christians whose beliefs are at odds with the religion they are part of. To join in the pile on, your mistake is thinking that you know what beliefs Christians hold better than Christians themselves. As far as I’m concerned, the beliefs of local Christians are by definition the tenets of the Christian religion. It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that Christians don’t believe in fairy stories, why would anyone ever assume that they did? While I know that some foreign Christians have some very nasty views and practices, it has always been obvious to me, as an atheist living in Christian-majority Britain, that the local Christians are generally charming and likeable people whom it is a pleasure to live amongst. The only confusing things are how many of their bishops and similar religious leaders appear to share the ridiculous beliefs and despicable bigotries of foreign (typically non-European) Christians, and why Cameron and Warsi have recently started banging on about us being a Christian nation (which is bemusing to everyone I know). ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/78 "2012-02-17T12:46:46Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I was baptised, my wife was baptised, both of our children have been baptised, we got married in a C of E church. We have been godparents several times. In each case, **all of those people involved were atheist**. Me, my wife and our children and the parents of our godchildren as well. **Bolding mine.** Lest anyone be unnecessarily alarmed, the odds are fairly good that the vicar was a believing (as well as a practising) Christian. Unless Mr Bobble went out of his way to find atheist vicars, which would have been a pointless hassle. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/79 "2012-02-17T13:47:58Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > To join in the pile on, your mistake is thinking that you know what beliefs Christians hold better than Christians themselves. I really don’t think ‘christian’ is in the Top 5 of most people’s primary identities. It’s no more than a box they tick every few years. I bet for a lot of the nominal ‘christians’ Man Utd Supporter and Heat Magazine reader would rank higher as a compnent of their personal identities. They don’t hold ‘beliefs’ so much as they ‘don’t know and don’t care’ about any of it. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916/80 "2012-02-17T14:04:00Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Surely the fact that a sizeable number of (hypothetical) Catholics don’t believe in transubstantiation means it is definitively a Catholic belief? Religions grow, change and evolve - there isn’t a set of In Rules and Out Rules that stays the same forever (that doesn’t mean the rules don’t exist, but that they may not be the same as they were 50 years, 200 years, 2800 years ago). If, in your example, Catholicism has come to a point where a large chunk of Catholics don’t believe in transubstantiation, then that’s a statement about where Catholicism is as a movement, not who is and isn’t Catholic. Well, that’s true for most religions, but Catholics are much more hierarchical than most (all?) other religions. The rules and regs of Catholicism are set by the Vatican, not by the local priest. You can be Christian and use birth control, for example, but it’s never made sense to me how you could consider yourself Catholic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-hard-data-on-uk-christian-belief/612916.md?page=5)