# Interesting Penology Conundrum in England **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108 "2013-05-23T09:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/1 "2013-05-23T09:56:48Z")
A triple child killer who impaled his victims on spiked garden railings had his cloak of anonymity lifted yesterday in a major victory for ‘open justice’. David McGreavy – dubbed the Monster of Worcester – had used human rights law to claim the public should be kept in the dark about his bid to move to an open jail. But, after a legal challenge by the Daily Mail and other newspapers, the High Court quashed the secrecy order. It removes the chilling prospect of the public not knowing if one of the most dangerous men in Britain is close to being released. Last night, Dorothy Urry, the mother of his three victims, called for criminals to be banned from exploiting the Human Rights Act and said it was vital that Press freedom to report the workings of the criminal justice system be protected. Her plea came as police seek to impose draconian restrictions on the identification of suspects. ‘Why shouldn’t criminals be named,’ asked Mrs Urry. ‘We don’t know who we’re walking next to these days – the public has a right to know. 'If he was to move next door, you would have to know exactly who and what he was. It may stop people doing what he did if they knew how it ruined lives.” McGreavy, now 62, committed one of the most horrific crimes of the past 40 years when, on Friday April 13, 1973, he murdered the three children of Mrs Urry – who was then known as Elsie Ralph – and her husband Clive. He was a lodger with the couple and had been babysitting at their Worcester home when the youngest child, nine-month-old Samantha, began crying for her bottle. McGreavy went berserk, battering Samantha to death. Her brother Paul, four, was strangled and Dawn, two, had her throat cut. Police found their mutilated bodies impaled on a neighbour’s railings. He was jailed for life, with a minimum term of 20 years. Since this term expired, he has been trying to secure his freedom but has yet to be released by the Parole Board. Read more: [David McGreavy can be named for murdering three children in 1973 | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328921/David-McGreavy-named-murdering-children-1973.html#ixzz2U6jiXtD0) Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook Ignoring the fact that he committed a terrible crime, it is an interesting conundrum for English Justice. Life sentences in England have what are termed tariffs or minimum terms. These are set at a level decided by the judge for retribution, discouragement of others and safety of the community. A domestic anger murder might rsult in a tariff of 10-14 years, a mass sex murdered, child killer for sexual motives, police killer etc might attract a tariff of 40 years to whole life. This man had a tariff of 20 years and since then the parole board considers that he no longer should be held in prison for any tariff reason. To leave prison it is necessary that a lifer be transferred slowly back to the community and this involves transition through a Category D Open Prison, visits out, then residence in a bail hospital. Because of his notoriety it has been impossible to place him in a Cat D prison without placing him at risk. So he is stalled. The European Court of Human Rights have found (in the case of indeterminate sentences) that the Prison service owes a duty of care to allow prisoners’ progression to freedom if that is what the law calls for. The prison service cannot currently comply with the rules and the law. Additionally the man was previously protected from general identification by a court order stopping the press covering his story. That has now been overturned. That will now require a new identity be created for him at the cost of many hundreds of thousands of pounds, and a correctly formatted gagging order on the press. The question is: How should the prison service act to allow his release? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/2 "2013-05-23T10:12:06Z")
I think the police should follow the letter of the law. Nothing beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/3 "2013-05-23T10:20:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think the police should follow the letter of the law. Nothing beyond that. The police are not involved- it is a matter for the Prison Service. The ECHR have made it clear that they have a duty to provide facilities to allow people to be released at the end of their sentence. Saying that they cannot think of a way of doing it will not satisfy the court. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/4 "2013-05-23T10:40:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > David McGreavy – dubbed the Monster of Worcester – had used human rights law to claim the public should be kept in the dark about his bid to move to an open jail. I love this, as though McGreavy knows anything about human rights law. I think you mean his smartass lawyer had used the law to try to prevent the public knowing. Mind you looking at the crime he committed how did anyone think he was sane? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/5 "2013-05-23T10:43:26Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > I love this, as though McGreavy knows anything about human rights law. I think you mean his smartass lawyer had used the law to try to prevent the public knowing. > > Mind you looking at the crime he committed how did anyone think he was sane? The prison service has a duty to inform and educate prisoners on their legal rights; to deny them knowledge or access to legal advice would be illegal. Do you not think that prisoners should have access to the law? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/6 "2013-05-23T10:48:39Z")
I take it that he cannot simply be hanged, drawn and quartered, with his body released for mounting on the old London Bridge’s remnant pedestrian alcove in Victoria Park? More seriously, let him decide for himself the speed at which he progresses through the regular release process. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/7 "2013-05-23T10:52:13Z")
No, not at all. As I indicated I’m amazed that he could be convicted under the circumstances that were in the media. The idea that someone could kill 3 children because one was crying, yet the parents felt he was an appropriate minder, seems to indicate to me that this wasn’t some volitional act. I just object to the idea that the actions of lawyers can be ascribed to the person they act for. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/8 "2013-05-23T10:53:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I take it that he cannot simply be hanged, drawn and quartered, with his body released for mounting on the old London Bridge’s remnant pedestrian alcove in Victoria Park? > > More seriously, let him decide for himself the speed at which he progresses through the regular release process. The prison service has a duty to maintain the safety of its residents. It has failed to do so in the facilities required for his rehabilitation mandated by law. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/9 "2013-05-23T11:07:30Z")
If the prison service can’t hold him, they should simply open the doors and let him out. Once he leaves, he’s no longer their responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/10 "2013-05-23T11:34:54Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The prison service has a duty to maintain the safety of its residents. But if he is being released he is no longer a resident. Open the door, once he steps out shut the door. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/11 "2013-05-23T12:13:43Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > But if he is being released he is no longer a resident. Open the door, once he steps out shut the door. Which is illegal as the law requires a program of rehabilitation and a plan of action to resettle him in the community. It would be illegal to release him without a protective shield of somekind. This is now going to involve a costly identity change and some expensive, possibly single person accommodation half way house. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/12 "2013-05-23T12:19:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > This man had a tariff of 20 years and since then the parole board considers that he no longer should be held in prison for any tariff reason. He still has to convince the parole board that he’s worthy of parole. I’ll let **casdave** give the Straight Dope on that. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/13 "2013-05-23T12:25:32Z")
So this: > [@](#): > > How should the prison service act to allow his release? from the OP is simply a nonsense. Why don’t you just tell us what you think they should do since you object to anyone else’s suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/14 "2013-05-23T12:42:00Z")
Surely there are many communities in England full of right-thinking people that would welcome this man back into society. So why the need for a name change? Besides, the “Monster of Worcester” has a nice ring to it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/15 "2013-05-23T13:14:29Z")
I don’t see the conundrum. Back when they passed this law, they thought the drawbacks were worth the risk. Issue him some new papers, let him stay in some anonymous hotel for a couple of months, and be done with it. If he kills some children, oh well. You can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/16 "2013-05-23T13:32:26Z")
To the OP: what, exactly, are you afraid will happen? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/17 "2013-05-23T13:49:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs. > > Regards, > Shodan Sure you can. Eggbeaters, for instance, can be used to make an omellete. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/18 "2013-05-23T14:38:28Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Sure you can. Eggbeaters, for instance, can be used to make an omellete. [Egg Beaters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_Beaters) is made from egg whites, so eggs must still be broken. > [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t see the conundrum. Back when they passed this law, they thought the drawbacks were worth the risk. Issue him some new papers, let him stay in some anonymous hotel for a couple of months, and be done with it. Agreed, this seems like an obvious consequence of the law in effect. What other choice is there? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/19 "2013-05-23T15:04:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Egg Beaters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_Beaters) is made from egg whites, so eggs must still be broken. OK, then here’s a [vegan omelet made sans eggs.](http://blog.fatfreevegan.com/2007/09/vegan-omelette-for-one.html) _No_ eggs broken.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/20 "2013-05-23T15:10:06Z")
Well, you’ve got me there. Darn vegans. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108.md?page=2)