# Interesting Penology Conundrum in England **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108 "2013-05-23T09:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/101 "2013-05-24T23:18:36Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > What information should the state withhold from the public; how is this decided? Lots if information as decided by Parliament or by the judiciary. Protecting children and protecting proprietary information come to mind. Filing under seal, closing courtrooms, and restricting disclosure of criminal records are nothing new. It’s a matter of finding a balance between freedom of information and protection of privacy, and a balance between state and individual priorities. Lots of grey, and little black and white. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/102 "2013-05-25T04:17:46Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is called a humane society. A humane society doesn’t release people back into society who have a reasonable chance of repeating a crime as heinous as killing 3 children. Anyone who could do that once is so beyond the measure of anything sane that the chance of coming back completely is slim. This is a stupid mistake to let him out and not humane to the society he is being released into. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/103 "2013-05-25T05:56:29Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Lots if information as decided by Parliament or by the judiciary. Protecting children and protecting proprietary information come to mind. Filing under seal, closing courtrooms, and restricting disclosure of criminal records are nothing new. It’s a matter of finding a balance between freedom of information and protection of privacy, and a balance between state and individual priorities. Lots of grey, and little black and white. Agreed- what I was suggesting by the rhetorical question aimed at people advocating ‘my free speech is better than yours’! Different polities come to different restrictions on the limits of free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/104 "2013-05-25T06:03:35Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > A humane society doesn’t release people back into society who have a reasonable chance of repeating a crime as heinous as killing 3 children. Anyone who could do that once is so beyond the measure of anything sane that the chance of coming back completely is slim. This is a stupid mistake to let him out and not humane to the society he is being released into. Most of the rest of the western world (Europe, Old Commonwealth, the rest of the Americas, etc.) does tend to release all but the obviously most dangerous lifers. It must always be remembered that the US approach to retribution is an outlier compared with other established democracies. As with the DP, the penal activities it engages in place it in the same category as considerably less attractive political structures. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/105 "2013-05-25T14:20:51Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The mob is under control of the rule of law. If that were true, he wouldn’t need a new identity. So apparently Europeans aren’t as sensitive to the human rights of murderers as you assert. But I still don’t see the problem. You think your system is better than that of the US. Goody gumdrops for you. If you think the restrictions on the press, the expense of creating a secret identity, and the possibility that he will kill some more people, are worth it, then knock yourself out and get to it. But whining about it on a US messageboard doesn’t accomplish anything. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/106 "2013-05-25T16:22:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If that were true, he wouldn’t need a new identity. So apparently Europeans aren’t as sensitive to the human rights of murderers as you assert. > > But I still don’t see the problem. You think your system is better than that of the US. Goody gumdrops for you. If you think the restrictions on the press, the expense of creating a secret identity, and the possibility that he will kill some more people, are worth it, then knock yourself out and get to it. But whining about it on a US messageboard doesn’t accomplish anything. > > Regards, > Shodan Nice straw man. I didn’t say that the mob were more sensitive, (though they probably are), just that the judicial procedures are fairer and more humane. I thought this was a rather international board that happened to be based in Chicago, based on Knowledge rather than nationality. One of the drawbacks of the American system (I was educated there) is a certain narrow view and failure to understand that things can be done differently but well else where. Most of the rest of the world save China and Russia are forced daily to consider how things are done differently by their powerful near neighbors; this is missing from the general US perspective, and it is worth pointing out that there are alternate ways that are not controlled by the US Constitution, that may meet similar problems with different (maybe better) solutions. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/107 "2013-05-25T16:30:38Z")
And to add to the above, the history of the reaction to Mob attacks on criminals and such in the community has been extremely heavy in the UK. People attacking child killers or molesters in the community receive long sentences appropriate for the level of their criminality. Juries do convict them and killers have been jailed for 30 plus years the way that sentencing is structured in England. The rule of law applies to the mob as to everyone The rule of law does not guarantee peace, but it does seek Justice. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/108 "2013-05-25T16:57:10Z")
The USA has by far the [highest incarceration rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate)of any country in the world. The USA’s incarceration rate is over 465% higher than the UK’s incarceration rate, but despite this, the [murder rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)in the USA is 400% higher than in the UK. When comparing the UK with the USA, Americans are neither as free nor as safe. But of course the facts make little difference when conversing with people who have entrenched beliefs and limited interest in looking outside their own walls. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/109 "2013-05-25T18:13:10Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Nice straw man. I didn’t say that the mob were more sensitive, (though they probably are), just that the judicial procedures are fairer and more humane. You said the mob was under the rule of law. If that were the case, you would not need to worry about this murderer being harmed after his release. > [@](#): > > One of the drawbacks of the American system (I was educated there) is a certain narrow view and failure to understand that things can be done differently but well else where. If things are being done so well in the UK, why are you whining about the difficulties with this murderer’s release? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/110 "2013-05-25T19:09:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Longer ago than: > > nited States history is littered with repressive laws. Constitutional protections and civil liberties have been targeted. The 1798 Alien and Sedition Acts restricted First Amendment freedoms. So did the > > 1917 Espionage Act, > > 1919 anti-communist Palmer raids, > > 1934 Special Committee on Un-American Activities > > 1942 Alien Acts, > > 1950 House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) > > 1980s FBI COINTELPRO crackdowns, > > 1996 Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act, > > 2001 USA Patriot Act > Arrange the following into a well known phrase or saying > > Glass people in live houses stones not who should stones throw. I could name plenty of similiar incidents on your side of the pond. Throwing stones indeed. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/111 "2013-05-25T19:30:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If things are being done so well in the UK, why are you whining about the difficulties with this murderer’s release? He’s not whining, he’s stealth bragging. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/112 "2013-05-26T01:38:21Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > And to add to the above, the history of the reaction to Mob attacks on criminals and such in the community has been extremely heavy in the UK. People attacking child killers or molesters in the community receive long sentences appropriate for the level of their criminality. Juries do convict them and killers have been jailed for 30 plus years the way that sentencing is structured in England. Well there you go, people attacking child killers or molesters are given longer terms than the child killers and molesters. Brilliant! Certainly no injustice in that. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/113 "2013-05-26T06:39:41Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > Well there you go, people attacking child killers or molesters are given longer terms than the child killers and molesters. Brilliant! Certainly no injustice in that. Actually the sentencing guidelines are very specific about the levels of sentences and all face the same standard. Good straw man though- I did not say that child killers and molesters get lesser sentences than their attackers- tighten up your logic and don’t argue from one historic case to what is happening now! Sentencing has changed somewhat in the last forty years. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108/114 "2013-05-26T16:37:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I brought up the Star Chamber for two reasons: > > 1. First of all, to counter your “rule of law” mantra - the Star Chamber, after all, was completely legal, and challenging it would be challenging the rule of law. Saying rule of law" isn’t always enough. Sometimes, you have to think of the spirit of the law. > > 2. Second of all, to show how withholding information from the public is rarely a good idea, no matter what century you’re living in. Incdidentally, if you want a good overview of the development of modern law from suitable for a well read layman such as youself, read [The Trial](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trial-History-Socrates-Simpson/dp/0007111223). It examines many of the issues which are raised in this thread and explains the rationale behind many legal practices. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-penology-conundrum-in-england/659108.md?page=5)