# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 101
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2001 "2018-10-31T23:50:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Correlation may not prove causation, but that stated, I have a rule of thumb: anyone who hates anyone, also hates Jews. Hates blacks? Anti-Semite. Hates immigrants? Anti-Semite. Hates gays? Anti-Semite. Hates Muslims? Also probably anti-Semite. It’s not true in 100% of the time, but it’s close enough. It brought an old song to mind: Oh the protestants hate the catholics And the catholics hate the protestants And the hindus hate the muslims And everybody hates the jews , but during National Brotherhood Week National Brotherhood Week, it’s National Everyone-Smile-At -One-Another-hood Week, be Nice to people who are Inferior to you It’s only for a week so have no fear Be grateful that it doesn’t last all year But seriously, Jews are always revealed to be the enemy motivating any fascist idea. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2002 "2018-11-01T00:00:21Z")
I dunno…a lot of those right wing nuts seem to love Bibi. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2003 "2018-11-01T00:41:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I dunno…a lot of those right wing nuts seem to love Bibi. That doesn’t tell us anything. One can be racist and still be fond of an individual black person. One can be anti Semitic and still like an individual Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2004 "2018-11-01T01:02:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > One can be racist and still be fond of an individual black person. One can be anti Semitic and still like an individual Jew. This is seriously still a thing. “I (they) can’t be bigots, I (they) have [black/Jewish/etc] friends”? Really? :smack: Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2005 "2018-11-01T04:01:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Do you really think the U.S. in 2018 cannot build a border wall as well as East Germany nearly 60 years ago? Theirs was quite effective, even if the direction of movement was the opposite. It wasn’t the mere physical existence of the Berlin Wall itself that provided an effective (although still not 100% effective) barrier to movement. It was the fact that the wall was so heavily guarded 24 hours a day, with several guard towers per mile and a total force of some ten thousand guards, along with landmines and other barrier reinforcements. A similar construction along the entire US-Mexico border would require many thousands of guard towers. If 30 miles of Berlin Wall required 10,000 guards to secure it round the clock, then 1500 miles (at a conservative estimate) of Trump Wall would need, lessee, a force of about half a million guards. That’s nearly as many people as work **for the entire US Postal Service** , for fuck’s sake. No way is the US ever going to commit to a Trump Wall the kind of resources required to create a guarded barrier as effective as the Berlin Wall. And without effective guarding, any US-built barrier is basically just a form of subsidy to Mexico’s ladder and shovel manufacturers. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2006 "2018-11-01T10:36:48Z")
Even if Trump build his wall across the entire damned border, it wouldn’t stop people from coming here and overstaying their visas. That’s actually more common than illegal border crossings. If we were serious about cracking down on illegal immigration, we’d institute a National ID Card system, made with tamper proof biometric data. If you wish to work in the U.S, you need to possess this card. We’d focus our efforts on targeting employers who violate that law. This would remove the economic incentive to be in the country illegally, and people would begin self deporting. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2007 "2018-11-01T13:32:26Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Liberals sure get exercised about the idea of a border wall, a relatively innocuous idea. Get mad about separating families, sure. But the wall? At worst it’s a waste of money, but relatively minor compared to the bloated Pentagon budget. It’s a stupid talking point that ignores the reality of what the border actually looks like, especially in areas where the Rio Grande is the border. Especially when it devolves into discussions about how tall the wall has to be to thwart catapults and ladders, or whether or not it should be see-through. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2008 "2018-11-01T13:43:41Z")
Every year, millions of undocumented immigrants pay US income taxes through the use of an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN). > **[Individual Taxpayer Identification Number](https://www.nilc.org/issues/taxes/itinfaq/)** Do you think the US Immigration Service and ICE should be allowed to access these IRS records in order to hunt down and deport these individuals, even though such a policy would probably cause lots of undocumented immigrants to stop paying taxes altogether? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2009 "2018-11-01T16:41:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Correlation may not prove causation, but that stated, I have a rule of thumb: anyone who hates anyone, also hates Jews. Hates blacks? Anti-Semite. Hates immigrants? Anti-Semite. Hates gays? Anti-Semite. Hates Muslims? Also probably anti-Semite. It’s not true in 100% of the time, but it’s close enough. Interesting. I have a similar (more generalized) rule. If someone engages/defends bigotry, they’d probably do the same to “you and yours” once you walk out the door. Bigots then to use their bigotry **as a heuristic** ; able to fit any chosen situation and arbitrary group as required. I also watch out for the ones who are susceptible to compulsion/fixation, approval/confirmation seeking, and/or aggression. Conversations then to go like this: Bigot: “There’s X [problem] with Y [people], that requires immediate Z [action].” Me: “That’s discriminatory/unfair/alarmist/cruel.” Bigot: “My heart-of-hearts are as innocently pure as fresh snow, you clueless sheep. You need to see/know the things I’ve seen/known.” ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2010 "2018-11-01T18:57:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Hates Muslims? Also probably anti-Semite. It’s not true in 100% of the time, but it’s close enough. in that case they usually love you as the gateway for their prophet to return and then kill or convert you it is a funny kind of love. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2011 "2018-11-01T19:37:44Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > This would remove the economic incentive to be in the country illegally, and people would begin self deporting. “Self deporting”. Didn’t Romney get all kinds of grief for using that term? Seems so quaint now. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2012 "2018-11-01T20:36:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The degree to which religious violence is widely accepted in Pakistan (and some other places) is greatly overstated. Yes, those deemed apostates face considerable risk, but in my understanding this is not due to majority beliefs that they should be put to death, but rather the considerable influence wielded by extremists, with a large fringe. Thus, the proper and reasonable criticism should be directed to these extremist elements within certain sects of Muslims, not Muslims as a group. I think you might be disappointed. The research that [Pew](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/)carried out found that Pakistan people in general hold some pretty horrific beliefs when it comes to religiously-motivated punishments and laws. e.g. 84% favour making Sharia the law of the land and of those 89% say an adulturous woman should be stoned to death and 76% support the death penalty for apostasy. Those _sound_ like majority beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2013 "2018-11-01T20:43:55Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think you might be disappointed. The research that [Pew](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/)carried out found that Pakistan people in general hold some pretty horrific beliefs when it comes to religiously-motivated punishments and laws. e.g. 84% favour making Sharia the law of the land and of those 89% say an adulturous woman should be stoned to death and 76% support the death penalty for apostasy. > > Those _sound_ like majority beliefs. There was a time when countries that are now overwhelmingly (99%) Islamic and living under Shariah were 0% Islamic. How did that transition happen? Polite conversation? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2014 "2018-11-01T20:48:51Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think you might be disappointed. The research that [Pew](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/)carried out found that Pakistan people in general hold some pretty horrific beliefs when it comes to religiously-motivated punishments and laws. e.g. 84% favour making Sharia the law of the land and of those 89% say an adulturous woman should be stoned to death and 76% support the death penalty for apostasy. > > Those _sound_ like majority beliefs. I’ve seen that poll before. A majority of Pakistani people in that poll also say that sharia law should not apply to non Muslims. Further, many of those populations have extremity low levels of trust for various institutions (and rightfully so, in many cases), meaning that respondents may not know whether they’re speaking to a legitimate pollster rather than a government or religious ministry agent. But yes, that poll is routinely used by bigots to justify their bigotry. I don’t think that bigotry can be justified. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2015 "2018-11-01T21:12:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve seen that poll before. A majority of Pakistani people in that poll also say that sharia law should not apply to non Muslims. Further, many of those populations have extremity low levels of trust for various institutions (and rightfully so, in many cases), meaning that respondents may not know whether they’re speaking to a legitimate pollster rather than a government or religious ministry agent. > > But yes, that poll is routinely used by bigots to justify their bigotry. I don’t think that bigotry can be justified. So, were those questioned only selectively distrustful of the pollsters? Being liberal about one response and hard-line about the others? I agree with you that bigots will seize on those results for their own malign purposes but they’d find a way to do that whatever the results. That says nothing about whether those figures are wrong or truly unrepresentative. If you think the Pew research is wrong then on what better information can we determine the level of religiously-motivated violent beliefs held by the general population? How do you come by your assertion that it is “greatly overstated”? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2016 "2018-11-01T21:14:15Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > There was a time when countries that are now overwhelmingly (99%) Islamic and living under Shariah were 0% Islamic. How did that transition happen? Polite conversation? I’m not sure what you are suggesting, how do you think it happened? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2017 "2018-11-01T22:22:39Z")
“Convert or die”, methinks. Although I don’t think it’s fair to hold modern-day Muslims to account for their ancestors’ actions during the era of Islamic conquest, any more than it’s fair to find modern-day Norwegians responsible for Viking conquest and pillaging. Or modern-day Americans or Europeans for 19th-century colonialism. BTW, Sam’s latest podcast sounds like it’s going to be interesting, especially for us in this thread. It’s a crossover from the new TED Interviews podcast, so Sam is actually the one being interviewed, by “the head of TED”, Chris Anderson. I’ve only heard Sam’s intro thus far, but he says Chris “worries about some of my views”, so it sounds like there might be some airing of some of the issues we’ve tussled over here. Sam’s also got Rebecca Traister coming up (whom I love even if I disagree with her on some points), and although it’s not released yet, it had clearly already been recorded when he did the intro, and he indicated that it was a heated conversation. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But yes, that poll is routinely used by bigots to justify their bigotry. I wondered how you were going to wriggle out of this one. And sure enough, there is no better example I can imagine of how you proceed from your conclusions. Pew, the most respected outfit in the field of public opinion, reports an inconvenient result, so you implicitly throw them under the bus. Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2018 "2018-11-01T22:47:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “Convert or die”, methinks. Although I don’t think it’s fair to hold modern-day Muslims to account for their ancestors’ actions during the era of Islamic conquest, any more than it’s fair to find modern-day Norwegians responsible for Viking conquest and pillaging. Or modern-day Americans or Europeans for 19th-century colonialism. Yes, Islam was initially spread through conquest centuries ago. But it is also maintained through the threat of violence. Apostasy is punishable by death. Is there any Muslim majority nation on Earth where one could safely start an Atheist Club? I ask this as a serious question. My guess is no, but I’d be delighted to be proven wrong on this. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2019 "2018-11-01T23:01:36Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Yes, Islam was initially spread through conquest centuries ago. But it is also maintained through the threat of violence. Apostasy is punishable by death. > > Is there any Muslim majority nation on Earth where one could safely start an Atheist Club? I ask this as a serious question. My guess is no, but I’d be delighted to be proven wrong on this. Same with Christianity, which was spread through conquest and maintained through a threat of violence. Tolerance for Atheists is new in the western world and far from universal and even individuals like John Locke argued that Atheists shouldn’t be allowed to be citizens. You special pleading related to recently economically successful countries being slightly more tolerant is not really that valid. Writing a simple paper was enough to get your children taken away in Victorian Britain, and even George Bush claimed that atheists weren’t allowed to be citizens. And lets remember that half of the reason we even have immigration laws was to keep out the Jewish and the Catholics and the KKK use to hang them along with people of color pre-WWII. Christians were dragged into being semi-tolerant and their beliefs are pretty damn close to those of Islam, people just are more likely to ignore their bible these days. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2020 "2018-11-01T23:10:15Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “Convert or die”, methinks. Although I don’t think it’s fair to hold modern-day Muslims to account for their ancestors’ actions during the era of Islamic conquest, any more than it’s fair to find modern-day Norwegians responsible for Viking conquest and pillaging. Or modern-day Americans or Europeans for 19th-century colonialism. > > BTW, Sam’s latest podcast sounds like it’s going to be interesting, especially for us in this thread. It’s a crossover from the new TED Interviews podcast, so Sam is actually the one being interviewed, by “the head of TED”, Chris Anderson. I’ve only heard Sam’s intro thus far, but he says Chris “worries about some of my views”, so it sounds like there might be some airing of some of the issues we’ve tussled over here. Sam’s also got Rebecca Traister coming up (whom I love even if I disagree with her on some points), and although it’s not released yet, it had clearly already been recorded when he did the intro, and he indicated that it was a heated conversation. > > I wondered how you were going to wriggle out of this one. And sure enough, there is no better example I can imagine of how you proceed from your conclusions. Pew, the most respected outfit in the field of public opinion, reports an inconvenient result, so you implicitly throw them under the bus. Pathetic. Wriggle out of the poll that shows most Pakistani people don’t think sharia law should apply to non Muslims? Sure, there are some results that reflect poorly on many of them. I’m sure this helps you feel better about your ignorant broad brushing and bigotry. But Muslim beliefs vary extremely widely. At worst, that shows that ugly beliefs are more common in Pakistan than most other Muslim countries (if accurate). But it doesn’t justify your bigotry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=100) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=102)