# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 104
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2061 "2018-11-02T16:22:54Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Yes we ar eseriously going to cite the Turkey on the **factual** \*\*\*\* existence of the athiest club able to be identified with the ten secods on the internet. Whose website was banned by the government in 2015 (ancient history, right?). Oh, it’s now back? Well, I guess there’s no problem at all then! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2062 "2018-11-02T16:35:50Z")
Troll troll troll by the racist bigot. Let us know when you have lapped up some of the new podcasts to parrot ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2063 "2018-11-02T16:39:29Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’ll answer, seeing as it is so easy. No. > > I’ll you an equally facile question. If you were setting up a society today and had the choice of having run in accordance with one of the main religious texts or the concepts of Secular Humanism and the enlightenment, which would you choose and why? Honestly, it probably wouldn’t matter too much in the long run. All texts, philosophies, ideas can and will be corrupted by those who want power. You could craft your perfect Secular Humanism treatise/bible/whatever and it would get distorted in ways you would never have imagined. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2064 "2018-11-02T16:41:56Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Troll troll troll by the racist bigot. > > Let us know when you have lapped up some of the new podcasts to parrot Way to demonstrate what substantive responsiveness is all about. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2065 "2018-11-02T16:57:02Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > Honestly, it probably wouldn’t matter too much in the long run. All texts, philosophies, ideas can and will be corrupted by those who want power. You could craft your perfect Secular Humanism treatise/bible/whatever and it would get distorted in ways you would never have imagined. That’s a dodge. Where would you prefer to start from, right here, right now? (and show me the society that switched from secular humanist principles to a theocracy and improved as a result) ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2066 "2018-11-02T17:07:44Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That’s a dodge. Where would you prefer to start from, right here, right now? So right now as in today and in this world? So I get about 10000 people and they have been brain-wiped and need to function as a society? If they get access to modern technology and can communicate with the modern world: I’d probably try secular humanist principles. If they are isolated and essentially in conditions like 10K years ago, then lets say the Torah. I sense you think I am a religious person, I am most certainly not. > [@](#): > > (and show me the society that switched from secular humanist principles to a theocracy and improved as a result) I might be missing something obvious, but what society has made that switch at all? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2067 "2018-11-02T17:22:55Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > So right now as in today and in this world? So I get about 10000 people and they have been brain-wiped and need to function as a society? > > If they get access to modern technology and can communicate with the modern world: I’d probably try secular humanist principles. > > If they are isolated and essentially in conditions like 10K years ago, then lets say the Torah. Why would secular humanism be unsuitable for a bronze age society? > [@](#): > > I sense you think I am a religious person, I am most certainly not. No, I don’t think that at all. > [@](#): > > I might be missing something obvious, but what society has made that switch at all? It was more a rhetorical question, I’m not aware of it happening and I don’t think that if it did, the society would be improved (where “improve” means maximise happiness and well-being for all) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2068 "2018-11-02T17:28:46Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > We are seriously going to cite Turkey as the example of tolerance of atheism in the Muslim world? I suspect it probably is the least intolerant of all Muslim majority countries ? Less so than, say, Albania or Bosnia or Niger? > [@SlackerInc](#): > > [Turkey's Atheists Face Hostilities, Death Threats](https://www.voanews.com/a/turkeys-atheists-face-hostility-death-threats/2720367.html) Hell, [atheists in the US have got thousands of death threats on FOX News’ Facebook page](https://www.businessinsider.com/fox-news-facebook-death-threats-world-trade-memorial-cross-2011-8): > [@](#): > > Just over a week ago [in August 2011] the group America Atheists filed a lawsuit to prevent a cross from being erected at the World Trade Center Memorial site. […] > > The Atheist’s argument is that people of many religions died in the towers on Sept 11 and should be represented in the memorial. > > Last week Blair Scott, the Communications Director for the American Atheists, appeared on Fox News show America Live to discuss the lawsuit. […] > > Following Scott’s appearance Fox News’ FaceBook page received more tha[n] 8,000 death threats against atheists. [Some of the American death threats against atheists:](http://onemansblog.com/2011/08/06/christians-openly-advocate-killing-athiests-on-fox-news-facebook-page/) > [@](#): > > “i say kill them all and let them see for themselves that there is God” […] > > “Shoot them. Shoot to kill.” […] > > “I thinly we should hang the leader of that group on the cross with nails through their hands and feet, place a crown of thorns upon their head, RAM a spear through their side all after being whipped and beaten publicly! Just so they can endure what Christ dod so they understand the sacrifice behind what that cross symbolizes.” […] > > “someone show me where they live&and they will live no mere!” […] > > “these people are f’ing scum of the earth. can we start killing them now? few groups are filled with more hatred than atheists.” […] > > “IF THE CROSS OFFENDS YOU: SO SHOULD THIS COUNTRY; LEAVE BEFORE WE KILL YOU!!!” […] Yeah, I’m not really seeing where the American pot gets to call the Turkish kettle grubby-ass here. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2069 "2018-11-02T17:30:15Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Way to demonstrate what substantive responsiveness is all about. :rolleyes: I have a manicure to go to, it is more important than playing chasing the straw men bigot games with you. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2070 "2018-11-02T18:05:08Z")
Sam made an interesting point at the end of the latest pod that illustrates how he is in no way a right winger, not even on the subject of Islam: > [@](#): > > Much of the Muslim world has not suffered the same centuries-long collision with modernity [as has the Christian West], and the collision it’s suffering now is occurring over a much shorter time frame—and without many of the same social and economic benefits being spread to these societies. > > And so we have to keep the endgame in view. The endgame has to be a viable global civilization that is pluralistic, cosmopolitan, tolerant of difference, and yet convergent on the same answers to the most important questions in life. It would not even occur to a right winger to frame it this way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2071 "2018-11-02T18:14:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Sam made an interesting point at the end of the latest pod that illustrates how he is in no way a right winger, not even on the subject of Islam: > > It would not even occur to a right winger to frame it this way. If only he (and you) could recognize that there’s nothing unusual or special about Islam as far as religions go – it’s just the geopolitical circumstances of those regions. This is a story about economics and geography, not religion. Poor countries, especially those with repressive governments, tend to be more socially conservative. Regardless of religion. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2072 "2018-11-02T18:18:10Z")
What part of “without many of the same social and economic benefits being spread to these societies“ did you not understand, andy? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2073 "2018-11-02T18:19:54Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > What part of “without many of the same social and economic benefits being spread to these societies“ did you not understand, andy? Maybe Sam gets it, at least a little bit (but not enough to refrain from lazy broad-brushing, as he has in many different posts/tweets/etc.) – but I’ve seen no indication that you do, yet. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2074 "2018-11-02T18:47:18Z")
I’m well aware that Catholic-dominated society was as bad or worse a few hundred years ago. But we have to live in 2018. And whatever the reasons, Islam is today the most powerful force for intolerance and oppression, just as the Vatican was back then. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2075 "2018-11-02T18:50:03Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m well aware that Catholic-dominated society was as bad or worse a few hundred years ago. But we have to live in 2018. And whatever the reasons, Islam is today the most powerful force for intolerance and oppression, just as the Vatican was back then. Bullshit. Poverty and oppressive government is, by far, “the most powerful force for intolerance and oppression”, just as it always has been. Individual religions have little to do with it, other than being a valuable tool for those in power to oppress and repress. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2076 "2018-11-02T18:56:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bullshit. Poverty and oppressive government is, by far, “the most powerful force for intolerance and oppression”, just as it always has been. Individual religions have little to do with it, other than being a valuable tool for those in power to oppress and repress. 😕 You think religion was an incidental aspect of the torture and execution carried out in the Spanish Inquisition? You have been so strongly trained to believe that religion must be inherently respected, it prevents you from seeing what’s right in front of your face. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2077 "2018-11-02T19:01:35Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > 😕 You think religion was an incidental aspect of the torture and execution carried out in the Spanish Inquisition? You have been so strongly trained to believe that religion must be inherently respected, it prevents you from seeing what’s right in front of your face. :smack: Any religion can do that shit. And any religion can do all the nice and compassionate stuff. The common thread is money and the powerful using tools like religion to control the masses and maintain their money and power. I think religion sucks. But there’s nothing special about any of the major ones (Christianity and Islam). They all can be tools for the rich and powerful, or (occasionally) enablers for compassion and righteousness. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2078 "2018-11-02T19:10:17Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But we have to live in 2018. Well, it’s not like atheists don’t still receive death threats in modern supposedly liberal non-Muslim societies like the US too. Besides my previously-cited examples, consider the following: [Death threats against American Atheists and also the billboard company following an atheist billboard campaign in Charlotte NC in 2012](https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2012/08/23/american-atheists-latest-billboards-taken-down-following-threats/). [Death threats against atheist who successfully sued for removal of religious monument at Pennsylvania public school in 2017](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2017/02/atheist-receives-death-threats-ten-commandments-decision/). [Death threat against atheist who opens American legislative body meetings with secular invocations in 2017](https://www.radioiowa.com/2017/07/13/iowa-atheist-leader-gets-death-threat-prior-to-oskaloosa-invocation/). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2079 "2018-11-03T00:23:11Z")
Okay, off for the weekend—see you all Monday. ---
**Author:** ![Reindeer\_Flotilla](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reindeer_flotilla/32/3024_2.png) [@Reindeer\_Flotilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reindeer_Flotilla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2080 "2018-11-03T02:50:20Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Okay, off for the weekend—see you all Monday. Have you ever noticed that whackjobs, with a racist/conspiracy/bigoted agenda who treat message boards as their own personal blog and broadcast medium, need to obsessively remind viewers when their next episode will be back on the air? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=103) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=105)