# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 106
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2101 "2018-11-07T04:44:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This just makes you weird. True dat. ETA: Seriously though, I was accused of basically auditioning to become a right wing personality. I commented here before that I firmly believe I could do that if I wanted to, and become somewhat rich and famous in the process. But I will NEVER do that. Maybe I can get into the IDW scene. But if not, I will just continue to be an Uber-driving Democrat with heterodox views, and that’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2102 "2018-12-07T09:34:51Z")
> **[Algerian woman denied French citizenship over handshake](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43839655)** > > An Algerian woman is denied citizenship for refusing to shake the hand of an official. > [@](#): > > A French appeals court has upheld a ruling denying an Algerian woman citizenship after she refused to shake the hand of a senior official. > The woman, who has not been named, said her “religious beliefs” prevented her from shaking the hand of the male official in the citizenship ceremony. > A government ruling said it showed she was “not assimilated into the French community” and denied her citizenship. The liberal hosts of one of my podcasts were in high dudgeon over this supposedly “anti-Muslim” policy, which has now expanded to Denmark and other places. Yet I’m pretty sure these same people are the first to jump all over MIke Pence for his more limited (but still absurd) policies about not dining alone with a woman and so on. Why the **fuck** should France grant citizenship to someone who won’t even shake an official’s hand? Why do they have any obligation to make these kinds of backwards beliefs more prevalent among their voting population? :smack: I mean, AFAIK she hasn’t been deported or jailed. She just can’t become a citizen due to something completely within her power to change. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2103 "2018-12-07T11:13:53Z")
Why the fuck should someone’s willingness to shake someone’s hand be a deciding factor in citizenship? Of all the petty, stupid bullshit… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2104 "2018-12-07T11:21:50Z")
…debates whether to PM a link to that post to **ZPGZealot** … ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2105 "2018-12-07T11:22:39Z")
France is free to set their own policy regarding citizenship. IMO this ruling sounds incredibly petty and just would further serve to culturally segregate minorities, thus further endangering France’s future, but that’s their choice. Welcoming societies and cultures will have much better results regarding cultural melding and assimilation, and a more secure and more united future, then societies that are not welcoming. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2106 "2018-12-07T13:03:54Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Why the **fuck** should France grant citizenship to someone who won’t even shake an official’s hand? Why do they have any obligation to make these kinds of backwards beliefs more prevalent among their voting population? :smack: Because France spent a huge amount of time, treasure and blood to drag millions of Muslims into the Francosphere so its a bit late to decide that they want nothing to do with Muslims. Also, maybe its because I’m not an ignorant racist fucknut but to me, the best way to help somebody move beyond a belief I find backwards is to include them in society not shut them out. Seriously, while she might still hold regressive\* beliefs her kids wont and her grand kids definitely won’t; unless they are held apart and kept isolated from everybody else. \*_I am not a fan of any religious or cultural beliefs that reinforce bigotry or discrimination for any reason._ ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2107 "2018-12-07T13:42:32Z")
You don’t know that. Others have heard me say this several times, but you may not have: Dutch Calvinists (who left Holland in part because other Dutch people understandably didn’t cotton to their extremly selfish, judgemental, narrowminded, self-righteous, parsimonious, and classist views) settled heavily in northwest Iowa. Nearly two hundred years later, their church is still dominant there and they are among the most right wing assholes you will find anywhere in the country, repeatedly re-electing Steve King, easily the single worst member of a very bad GOP caucus (Google him if you’re not familiar). Conservative religions can be “stickier” generationally than you are giving them credit for, all the more so if they have strict rules preventing fraternization with people outside the religion. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2108 "2018-12-08T18:22:39Z")
That’s because right-wing attitudes like those of Iowan Calvinists are in synch with, and even sustained by, the mainstream culture surrounding them. It’s not isolation that fosters their continuation, it’s being only a bit more Right variant of the generally Right Wing dominant culture. That’s not the case with Muslims in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2109 "2018-12-09T02:47:34Z")
Not true. Obama got 51% of the white vote in Iowa in 2012, higher than in Minnesota even. This is in an election when Romney got a record percentage of the white vote nationwide, higher than Trump. You can bet Obama got less than 20 percent in that region of the state, so higher into the 50s elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2110 "2018-12-09T15:33:50Z")
> [@yendis](#): > > Because France spent a huge amount of time, treasure and blood to drag millions of Muslims into the Francosphere so its a bit late to decide that they want nothing to do with Muslims. If you think it’s in France’s best interest to grant citizenship or turn her away, then I’m interested; but if you say France should base the choice on whether it’s a bit late, then I’m afraid I don’t quite follow: if something is the right decision, then I don’t see that It’s A Bit Late should be a concern — and if it’s the _wrong_ decision, then I’m not sure that It’s A Bit Late matters either. _How would France benefit from making her a citizen?_ I’m asking not what that country can do for her; I’m asking what she can do for that country. (France, of course, apparently concluded that the answer is _Not Enough To Make Sense_.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2111 "2018-12-09T16:27:17Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If you think it’s in France’s best interest to grant citizenship or turn her away, then I’m interested; but if you say France should base the choice on whether it’s a bit late, then I’m afraid I don’t quite follow: if something is the right decision, then I don’t see that It’s A Bit Late should be a concern — and if it’s the _wrong_ decision, then I’m not sure that It’s A Bit Late matters either. > > _How would France benefit from making her a citizen?_ I’m asking not what that country can do for her; I’m asking what she can do for that country. (France, of course, apparently concluded that the answer is _Not Enough To Make Sense_.) Assuming the only “knock” against her is that she doesn’t shake hands with men, then they should make her a citizen because there’s a greater chance of her being a productive member of society as a citizen (and a greater chance of her being a drag on society as a segregated and bitter non-citizen resident), and because it sends a signal that France and French society is making an effort to be as welcoming as possible to those from non-French backgrounds as long as they are interested in being productive members of French society. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2112 "2018-12-09T17:28:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Assuming the only “knock” against her is that she doesn’t shake hands with men, then they should make her a citizen because there’s a greater chance of her being a productive member of society as a citizen (and a greater chance of her being a drag on society as a segregated and bitter non-citizen resident), and because it sends a signal that France and French society is making an effort to be as welcoming as possible to those from non-French backgrounds as long as they are interested in being productive members of French society. See, _that_ position I can understand. I’m not sure I agree, but it’s _something_. I guess the flipside is like this: let’s say that would-be productive members of society are in short supply for France, which can’t much afford to be choosy, and this woman would be one of them. Or say it’s the reverse: that plenty of people are eager to be productive members of society, such that France can afford to (a) be choosy, and (b) send a signal that _“hey, we can afford to be choosy; we just turned down someone who offered us X amount of productivity, the same day we approved someone who’s just as good or better on that front, plus she’s willing to shake hands. We’ve got a long line of people who fit that bill; do yourself a favor, and don’t bother showing up until and unless you can say the same.”_ If it’s the former, then, yes, France’s choice makes little sense; but if it’s the latter, then I get why France would say ‘that handshake thing raises questions, the way various other concerns would raise questions — and, as it happens, we can take our pick from among folks who offer just as much but raise no such questions’. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2113 "2018-12-09T17:31:35Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > See, _that_ position I can understand. I’m not sure I agree, but it’s _something_. > > I guess the flipside is like this: let’s say that would-be productive members of society are in short supply for France, which can’t much afford to be choosy, and this woman would be one of them. Or say it’s the reverse: that plenty of people are eager to be productive members of society, such that France can afford to (a) be choosy, and (b) send a signal that _“hey, we can afford to be choosy; we just turned down someone who offered us X amount of productivity, the same day we approved someone who’s just as good or better on that front, plus she’s willing to shake hands. We’ve got a long line of people who fit that bill; do yourself a favor, and don’t bother showing up until and unless you can say the same.”_ > > If it’s the former, then, yes, France’s choice makes little sense; but if it’s the latter, then I get why France would say ‘that handshake thing raises questions, the way various other concerns would raise questions — and, as it happens, we can take our pick from among folks who offer just as much but raise no such questions’. Except that we have many years of actual history that shows us that when they’re _not_ welcoming, bitter and segregated underclasses form which threaten economic and even national security. While if they’re welcoming, like the US is (or at least has been intermittently in many ways), you get places like Dearborn Michigan, which are wonderful and wholly assimilated cities that just so happen to have tons of Muslims in them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2114 "2018-12-09T19:37:08Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Not true. Obama got 51% of the white vote in Iowa in 2012, higher than in Minnesota even. This is in an election when Romney got a record percentage of the white vote nationwide, higher than Trump. You can bet Obama got less than 20 percent in that region of the state, so higher into the 50s elsewhere. You think I think Obama was left wing, or something? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2115 "2018-12-09T21:44:28Z")
This thread is now about Female Genital Mutilation. Pass it on. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2116 "2018-12-10T05:10:09Z")
But not about male circumcision, right? Since they’re two different things and all (well, outside \*Yale \*- or is it _Oxford_). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2117 "2018-12-10T06:18:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You think I think Obama was left wing, or something? A true Scotsman! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2118 "2018-12-10T07:23:02Z")
I wasn’t the one who brought Obama into the discussion, Bub. I said Iowan Calvinists have no motivation to change because being _very_ Right Wing isn’t that far from mainstream American Culture, which is _itself_ Right Wing, and you bring up Iowans voting for Obama as though that countered my point. Here’s a hint - bringing up a _slightly-less_-Right-Wing-than-mainstream example doesn’t counter my argument. Congratulations, you played yourself. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2119 "2018-12-10T08:32:34Z")
Uhh, no. You made the kind of idiotic assertion that is sadly all too common among ultralefties: that Obama and Steve King (and the people who vote for one or the other but almost certainly not both) are anywhere close to being in the same sector of any political continuum. By extension, then, it doesn’t matter whether we have more of one kind of voter than the other, because the outcomes are too similar to care about. I’m not sure if you really believe that, or are desperately scrambling to cover your ignorance about Iowa, which didn’t stop you from making a confident proclamation about the state’s political orientation. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2120 "2018-12-10T11:27:33Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Uhh, no. You made the kind of idiotic assertion that is sadly all too common among ultralefties: that Obama and Steve King (and the people who vote for one or the other but almost certainly not both) are anywhere close to being in the same sector of any political continuum. They _are_ in the same sector. It is the sector _way_ to the right of me. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure if you really believe that, or are desperately scrambling to cover your ignorance about Iowa, which didn’t stop you from making a confident proclamation about the state’s political orientation. Don’t care what you think my motivation is, quite frankly. I’ve been quite open about the fact that I’m strongly Left, and IMO all American mainstream politics is Rightist. Why on Earth would you think I’d post anything different? But just FYI, you’re the only one making this about Iowa. When I say “dominant RW culture”, I mean Amerikkka as a whole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=105) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=107)