# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 108
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2141 "2018-12-12T18:28:18Z")
A white man in a high position was asked (or worse – ordered!) to apologize! How horrible for that poor white man in a high position? Who will speak for poor endangered white men in high positions who say something dumb and are directed to apologize, if not Sam Harris (or, in his absence, random racist internet weirdoes)? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2142 "2018-12-12T18:42:04Z")
Maybe you as a South African honestly don’t understand that joke either—I’ll actually give you the benefit of the doubt on that. Just FYI: saying “ladies lingerie” when asked what floor has NOTHING to do with sex. It’s a dumb joke, but a completely anodyne one. It is equivalent to saying “housewares” or “sporting goods”, because it refers to the different floors/departments of a classic department store. Therefore he was not “harassing” anyone, and certainly does not deserve “censure” of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2143 "2018-12-12T18:48:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Maybe you as a South African honestly don’t understand that joke either—I’ll actually give you the benefit of the doubt on that. Just FYI: saying “ladies lingerie” when asked what floor has NOTHING to do with sex. It’s a dumb joke, but a completely anodyne one. It is equivalent to saying “housewares” or “sporting goods”, because it refers to the different floors/departments of a classic department store. Therefore he was not “harassing” anyone, and certainly does not deserve “censure” of any kind. Thank goodness we have white men around to make these sorts of determinations! Only white men can truly know the facts and truth of such matters. Thank you, oh most wise and benevolent white man! ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2144 "2018-12-12T19:03:33Z")
Translation: in your Bizarro World, it’s the mirror image of the lamentable state of affairs in bygone eras: instead of white men being the only ones whose testimony is given any weight, for you they are the only ones ineligible to testify about anything—except, I suppose, in certain cases when they take the correct self-flagellating line like Andy is so fond of doing. That’s not justice, it’s tit for tat in some endless blood feud. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2145 "2018-12-12T19:25:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Translation: in your Bizarro World, it’s the mirror image of the lamentable state of affairs in bygone eras: instead of white men being the only ones whose testimony is given any weight, for you they are the only ones ineligible to testify about anything—except, I suppose, in certain cases when they take the correct self-flagellating line like Andy is so fond of doing. That’s not justice, it’s tit for tat in some endless blood feud. “Testify” all you want. Really. But when you declare from on high what the supposed “truth” about something as subjective as harassment, offense, and the intent of a certain joke, etc., is, then expect to be mocked. This isn’t about white men. It’s about you – you’re often an idiot, and I think it’s fun to point out your instances of idiocy on this board. I think this particular form of idiocy (believing that your experience renders you qualified to make judgments with certainty about things that are necessarily outside your own experience) is more common among white men, but it’s certainly not unique to any group. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2146 "2018-12-12T19:46:45Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Maybe you as a South African honestly don’t understand that joke either Gosh, no, sir, we have no department stores nor any exposure to decades of American media here in Darkest Africa, sir :rolleyes: You dumb racist motherfucker. > [@](#): > > Just FYI: saying “ladies lingerie” when asked what floor has NOTHING to do with sex. Sure , Mister. \*Whateeever \*you say. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2147 "2018-12-12T20:40:40Z")
I guess you’re a sophisticate who knows all about American culture. :rolleyes: When I went back to my birthplace of Kenya, the native Kenyans I talked to frequently peppered me with questions that indicated they did _not_ in fact understand U.S. culture terribly well, although they were certainly eager to learn. Which is no slight against them: most Americans are notoriously foggy about non-American cultures, and unfortunately all too often _don’t_ care to learn. (The British sometimes strike me that way as well, which is perhaps where Americans got that tendency from.) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2148 "2018-12-12T22:33:53Z")
> **[Opinion | She called his elevator joke offensive. He called her complaint...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/she-called-his-elevator-joke-offensive-he-called-her-complaint-frivolous-whos-right/2018/05/03/43ba4084-4ee1-11e8-af46-b1d6dc0d9bfe_story.html?utm_term=.f0b24a23cb12)** > > Making a federal case, or even a disciplinary one, over a stray remark is counterproductive. > [@](#): > > “Ladies’ lingerie.” It was a lame, outmoded joke — the sort of thing you say in a crowded elevator to alleviate the discomfort of being jammed among strangers, an artifact of the days of fancy department stores with operators announcing the floor stops. > **[Opinion | There was nothing wrong with this elevator joke](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/there-was-nothing-wrong-with-this-elevator-joke/2018/05/07/7f9a4312-5155-11e8-a6d4-ca1d035642ce_story.html)** > [@](#): > > In the 1940s and 1950s, large department stores hired employees who operated the elevators. On each floor the operator would call out: “Housewares, luggage and bedding!”; “Ladies’ lingerie and beach apparel!” Richard Ned Lebow, a professor of political theory at King’s College London and the 2014 recipient of a distinguished scholar award from the International Studies Association, was simply making fun of an archaic system. I have made similar comments on occasion in a crowded elevator. An apology was not necessary. Lighten up, people! Stop undermining those with serious issues of misogyny and abuse. > Jan Allnutt,Bethesda > **[Is 'Ladies Lingerie' a Harmless Joke or Harassment?](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/05/is-this-old-lingerie-joke-harmless-or-harassment/559760/)** > > A dispute among international-relations scholars puts the spotlight on a system that serves everyone poorly. > [@](#): > > Consider the remedy that the ISA suggests: a “sufficient” apology, which it defines as one that, among other things, addresses Lebow’s actions, “rather than the perceptions of Prof. Sharoni.” In other words, it would presumably be insufficient to say, “I am sorry that my joke in the elevator offended you,” a sentiment that he might conceivably hold. Rather, it would seem to require something like, “I am sorry that I harassed you in the elevator at the conference,” or “I am sorry that my joke was inappropriate and demeaning.” Put another way, the remedy seems to require Lebow to make a statement that he does not believe, and that the ISA surely knows he doesn’t believe. > Surely, as a matter of principle, no association of truth-seeking scholars should compel a member to make a statement he or she believes to be factually false?[…] > > Among the several academics with whom I spoke who strongly disagreed with ISA’s decision, Rose McDermott, a highly respected international relations scholar at Brown University, was willing to go on the record with her concerns[:] > > “In this particular case, Professor Lebow’s comment was an iconic joke, even instantiated in Harry Potter novels. “ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2149 "2018-12-12T22:59:28Z")
Oh no! A “lame, outmoded joke” might be interpreted differently in a different time, and when it references women’s underwear, taken as offensive. How terrible that Lebow was directed to apologize for saying such a (dumb) thing! What trials will wealthy white men have to endure next? Surely nothing could be worse than being directed to apologize for saying something dumb? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2150 "2018-12-13T00:28:46Z")
So you believe he should be required to profess something he doesn’t believe. :dubious: (Never mind what you think he _should_ believe: your belief about that isn’t going to change what he actually _does_ believe.). What is the point of that? I’m not sure how well-versed you are in history, but this is exactly how the Chinese Cultural Revolution worked. We’re not to that extreme (let’s hope “yet” is not the appropriate adverb to add here), but it’s a difference of degree rather than kind. > **[You have to be careful about using the word ‘struggle’ in China](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/03/you-have-to-be-careful-about-using-the-word-struggle-in-china/?utm_term=.2d39b813a6b1&noredirect=on)** > > Almost four decades after the Cultural Revolution, it's still a touchy – but untouched – subject. > [@](#): > > During Mao Zedong’s totalitarian and often ruthless rule over China, from the early 1950s through 1976, one of the Communist Party’s most unpleasant tactics for maintaining control was something called a “struggle session.” On the surface, the idea was that everyone had to suss out “class enemies” and try to better their own commitment to the Communist revolution by attending regular “struggle session” meetings where they’d admit their own revolutionary failures and try to do better as individuals and communities. In practice, though, it was a form of self-reinforcing terror, a means of purging political enemies real and imagined, a tactic for working people into ideological fervor, sometimes in mass “sessions” with thousands of people. But hey, maybe that sounds good to you. My late father, a Marxist anthropologist and a brilliant man in many other ways, used to defend Mao, which drove me crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2151 "2018-12-13T01:04:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So you believe he should be required to profess something he doesn’t believe. Newsflash: Many people who utter the words “I’m sorry” do not actually feel sorry. That doesn’t mean that requiring them to make an apology when they’ve done something jerkish constitutes some kind of Soviet-show-trial forced “recantation”. Any decent person **is** sorry if a silly joke they made upset or offended somebody. Refusing to apologize just because they don’t agree that their silly joke was as upsetting or offensive as the complainant found it simply makes the joke-teller look like a conceited jerk who can’t bear to acknowledge that they’re not quite as funny as they thought they were. That said, it would probably have been more effective for the complainant simply to be solicitous about the jerkish joke-teller’s apparent confusion, rather than appearing taken aback or embarrassed by the suggestiveness of the joke, which is a reaction that jerkish joke-tellers love to guffaw at. _“I’m sorry, sir, the floors here don’t have departments, they have numbers. Do you remember what number floor you’re going to? Or does one of the people with you maybe know where you’re going?”_ Conceited old sexist jerks enjoy embarrassing or surprising women with sexual innuendos but they absolutely **HATE** seeming to be elderly and confused. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2152 "2018-12-13T01:08:46Z")
As a reminder of what sort of apology is required: > [@](#): > > Consider the remedy that the ISA suggests: a “sufficient” apology, which it defines as one that, among other things, addresses Lebow’s actions, “rather than the perceptions of Prof. Sharoni.” In other words, it would presumably be insufficient to say, “I am sorry that my joke in the elevator offended you,” a sentiment that he might conceivably hold. Rather, it would seem to require something like, “I am sorry that I harassed you in the elevator at the conference,” or “I am sorry that my joke was inappropriate and demeaning.” Put another way, the remedy seems to require Lebow to make a statement that he does not believe, and that the ISA surely knows he doesn’t believe. > Surely, as a matter of principle, no association of truth-seeking scholars should compel a member to make a statement he or she believes to be factually false? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2153 "2018-12-13T01:20:17Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Rather, it would seem to require something like, “I am sorry that I harassed you in the elevator at the conference,” or “I am sorry that my joke was inappropriate and demeaning.” Or, for example, “I’m sorry for telling that stupid joke”. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Surely, as a matter of principle, no association of truth-seeking scholars should compel a member to make a statement he or she believes to be factually false? Eh, if the teller of the stupid joke isn’t actually sorry for telling it, then pretty much **any** apology will involve a statement that the teller believes to be factually false. That is not actually the intolerable assault on academic freedom that the whiny defenders of this stupid joke are melodramatically trying to make it out to be. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2154 "2018-12-13T05:45:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I guess you’re a sophisticate who knows all about American culture. :rolleyes: When I went back to my birthplace of Kenya, the native Kenyans I talked to frequently peppered me with questions that indicated they did _not_ in fact understand U.S. culture terribly well, Listen, you dumb racist cunt, 2 things: 1. Kenya is not South Africa - only ignorant racist fucksticks think what people on the street in one part of Africa know has any bearing on what’s known in a completely different country half a continent away. What does the pop cultural knowledge of Salvadorians say about your own? You really suck at making a coherent argument, but even more so when your racism obviously gets in the way. 2. You seem unaware of how pervasive American culture can be, with bits of it popping up all over the place in weird ways. Kind of like a fungus, or a cancer, but there you are. I was raised surrounded by idiocy like Reader’s Digest, Beltway comics recordings and American TV. But sure, make “You don’t really know anything about American culture” the basis of your argument, I’m \*sure \*that will prove fruitful, you bigotted simpleton. Point is, I’m aware of the source of the “humour”, I’m just denying that it’s innocently-used\* in this case. Or apologised immediately rather than doubling down - IME, it’s the guilty who shout back the loudest. Especially sexist pigs - look at Kavanaugh’s performance in Congress. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2155 "2018-12-13T05:47:59Z")
Oh, no, a similar joke can be found in Harry Potter! Tell me, I’m curious - how is an academic conference like a children’s book? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2156 "2018-12-13T05:50:42Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > My late father, a Marxist anthropologist and a brilliant man in many other ways :rolleyes: with the reflected glory again. I must admit, I question how “brilliant” either of your parents really were, when they so clearly failed as parents. Look at the racist simpleton they raised. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2157 "2018-12-13T10:32:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > :rolleyes: with the reflected glory again. > > I must admit, I question how “brilliant” either of your parents really were, when they so clearly failed as parents. Look at the racist simpleton they raised. Be careful or he might show you a video of a piece of paper with a high SAT score! And then where would you be? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2158 "2018-12-13T12:54:53Z")
Doubled over with laughter? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2159 "2018-12-13T14:30:26Z")
Your transparent envy is noted. 😛 Hey, don’t sweat it: not everyone can be three sigmas above average! I’m sure you are both very talented in your own special ways. \ > [@MrDibble](#): > > Kenya is not South Africa And yet: until it was no longer convenient for you, you felt free to speak for the whole continent (“Here in darkest Africa”). :dubious: BTW: “Beltway comics recordings”? 😕 Say what? I guess I missed American Culture class the day they covered that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2160 "2018-12-13T14:35:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And yet: until it was no longer convenient for you, you felt free to speak for the whole continent (“Here in darkest Africa”). Tagging my own location is not the same as “speaking for the whole continent”, you loonie. > [@](#): > > BTW: “Beltway comics recordings”? 😕 Say what? I guess I missed American Culture class the day they covered that. 😉 What, you’ve never heard of the Borscht Beltway? I made an error, obviously, I meant “Borscht Belt” and it came out as “Beltway”, I’m _clearly_ a low-sigma :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=107) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=109)