# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 117
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2321 "2018-12-20T19:33:55Z")
So… The bar for hate speech here is pretty fuckin high, huh? Sorry you had to see that then, Miller. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2322 "2018-12-20T20:36:53Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > “Something that happens everywhere in the world happened in a place with predominantly population X, therefore that place is dangerous because it’s largely made up of X” Beheadings go on everywhere? My goodness, who knew? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2323 "2018-12-20T21:04:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Beheadings go on everywhere? My goodness, who knew? So now your specific justification for cowardice and bigotry is that certain physical methods of murder are much worse than others? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2324 "2018-12-20T21:09:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s because you’re a coward and a bigot. He’s also a complete trolling idiot who has the completely pathetic pattern of the trying to pump up his self esteem by going on about his own intelligence although of course this thread is a many pages demostration of how patheticly false this is, the pretensions he tries. [Besides being a dishonest bigot troll. (comparison of violent crime w the USA)](https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Morocco/United-States/Crime) ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2325 "2018-12-20T21:18:17Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > “Something that happens everywhere in the world happened in a place with predominantly population X, therefore that place is dangerous because it’s largely made up of X” > > Replace Morocco with Detroit and Muslims with African-Americans, and you’ve recreated a lovely little argument fit for publication on The Daily Stormer. What the fuck is wrong with you? Like, what even the fuck? Or the [North Caroline and the white supramacist murders, or the Kentucy, or the Pennsylvian](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/3kyjz9/this-interactive-map-tracks-white-supremacist-hate-crimes-in-america)s… he’s just posting to troll you (although maybe he is also so completely drooling on himself stupid as to actually think the isolated case of the murder of two backpackers in a country then has the over [tens millions of tourist visits](https://tradingeconomics.com/morocco/tourist-arrivals) yearly and hundreds of thousands of backpackers of all sexes and races is some kind of statment about a country. But maybe he really is the very dim and stupid racist bigot he’s playing … ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2326 "2018-12-20T21:35:56Z")
My mom is in her seventies and in poor health, so I’m not going to confront her on this. But I’d sure be curious to know what Norway or Denmark have to do with Western imperialism in the Muslim world. I guess they’re both in NATO, but still… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2327 "2018-12-21T01:50:21Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But I’d sure be curious to know what Norway or Denmark have to do with Western imperialism in the Muslim world. Well, besides the slave-trading [Danish Gold Coast](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_slave_trade) colonies of Denmark-Norway and slavery in the Danish West Indies in the 18th and 19th centuries (before Norwegian independence), there were the Dano-Norwegian colonies in India. These latter specifically engaged the “Muslim world” via, e.g., the 17th-century conflicts with the Mughal Empire and the 18th-century acquisition of territory in West Bengal. Western imperialism wasn’t just limited to two or three European countries. Pretty much **everybody** wanted imperial expansion in Asia, Africa and/or the Pacific and did what they could to get some. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2328 "2018-12-21T13:13:46Z")
My mom’s point (echoed by the many other not-hard-left-according-to-you people I know) seemed to me to be about military occupation in modern living memory: Beirut, Iraq, Afghanistan. Plus of course staunch support for Israel (which, to be clear, I do think is misguided). If it’s more about actions taken before anyone living was born, how far are we going to go back? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2329 "2018-12-21T14:37:33Z")
Your mom’s point about what? She’s defending these murders on the basis of Denmark’s support of Israel? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2330 "2018-12-21T14:39:23Z")
I haven’t talked to her about this attack specifically, but I quoted upthread from her email in which she said she blames our military interventions in the Muslim world for all the violence in and emanating from those countries, “including ISIS”. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2331 "2018-12-21T15:17:00Z")
Well your mom doesn’t post here or hold any position of authority so I don’t really care to search out the email you’re talking about but both Denmark and Norway were nominally part of the occupation of Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2332 "2018-12-21T15:36:39Z")
Okay, fine. All the more reason for those countries’ nationals to be careful about where they go backpacking. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2333 "2018-12-21T15:44:40Z")
What do you peg as the odds of a hiker being murdered in and around Imlil, Morocco? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2334 "2018-12-21T16:07:49Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What do you peg as the odds of a hiker being murdered in and around Imlil, Morocco? Of for the sake of God, why are you bothering to take the Slacker Slimey Slide seriously? the racist asshole just wants to make people dance. In any case, the supposed video of the three losers from the city of Marrakech for the DAECH is quoted in al Masae as only referencing the Syria and the last DAECH stronghold. These semi literate low class human wastes committed murder with all the same illogic of their equivalent in Pennsylvania shooting of the synagogue or the racist scum boy shooting the black american church. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2335 "2018-12-21T16:09:27Z")
I’m not taking him seriously. That was a rhetorical question designed to show how ridiculous he’s being. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2336 "2018-12-21T20:13:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I haven’t talked to her about this attack specifically, but I quoted upthread from her email in which she said she blames our military interventions in the Muslim world for all the violence in and emanating from those countries, “including ISIS”. 😕 Are you referring to your post #2259 where you quoted your mom as saying “Much of what is happening in the Middle East (including ISIS) is due to our interventions there"? Because if so, that is quite different from blaming our military interventions for **ALL** “the violence in and emanating from those countries”. Gee whiz, **SlackerInc** , I would think that you could manage not to misquote or mis-paraphrase your **own** posts, at least. There is nothing at all radical or irrational about saying that US interventions in the Middle East have had a significant impact on events there, including the generation of anti-US resentment that leads to increased support for radical Islamist-extremist movements. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2337 "2018-12-21T20:28:44Z")
I will grant you this much: the odds of being killed if you are camping in the Morocco wilderness are much lower than if you walked around the nearest city making the obvious point that Mohammed was quite clearly either psychotic or a fabulist. Whereas if you are in Utah, your life expectancy is probably higher if you walk around Salt Lake City saying the same thing about Joseph Smith, versus camping in the Stansbury Mountains and risking hypothermia or rock slides. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2338 "2018-12-21T20:47:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I will grant you this much: the odds of being killed if you are camping in the Morocco wilderness are much lower than if you walked around the nearest city making the obvious point that Mohammed was quite clearly either psychotic or a fabulist. Whereas if you are in Utah, your life expectancy is probably higher if you walk around Salt Lake City saying the same thing about Joseph Smith, versus camping in the Stansbury Mountains and risking hypothermia or rock slides. :dubious: So instead of “be careful where they go backpacking” what you really meant was “be careful where they go screaming denunciations of prophets”? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2339 "2018-12-21T20:52:35Z")
Either. Both. And no screaming is required, nice try. Seriously: how come in Utah, people will just get annoyed at you, while in a Muslim country, your chance of survival to see another sunrise plummets? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2340 "2018-12-21T20:59:38Z")
Lots of rapes in Salt Lake City. Mormons, what are ya gonna do? ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=116) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=118)