# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 119
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2361 "2019-01-04T03:51:59Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > what about the musical “The Book of Mormon”, which pokes fun at the LDS religion and its founding? If you produced a similar musical called “The Q’uran”, would you be able to get any actors to publicly star in it? Would insurers even allow it to happen? How much security would be required? That analogy is kind of feeble (and also, the spelling of “Qur’an” is wrong; not that I think typos are intrinsically very important, but if you want to come across as somebody who is even slightly well informed about Islam, bollixing up the transliteration of the name of its scripture is not a good look). Recall that Mormonism is a comparatively very small, recent and distinctly heterodox doctrine that most Christians regard as rather “weird” or even outright heretical/blasphemous. That makes it quite easy to treat Mormonism as a ridiculous subject of satire in a mainstream Christian cultural context. A better analogy would be to compare “The Book of Mormon” with a hypothetical satirical musical about, say, the Baha’i faith. I think quite a lot of Muslims would have no particular ideological problem with a musical mocking Baha’i. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2362 "2019-01-04T04:20:50Z")
I can’t take seriously any complaint about “misspelling” names that are written in a different alphabet. I’m a stickler for spelling in English (and French for that matter), but look at the different ways Khadafi/Qadaffi has been spelled; and then there’s Mao Tse-tung/Zedong. If the pronunciation is close, it’s spelled “right” IMO. (We don’t even get that right in some cases: for instance, the city we call “Moscow” is pronounced/spelled like “Moskva” in Russian.) Your analogy is terrible, and Sam’s is good. Mormonism is, like Islam, an offshoot of the Abramaic religions that was created based on a single prophet’s claim of unique access to a major new revelation hundreds or thousands of years after its precursors were well established. According to Pew, Mormons make up 1.7% of the U.S. population and Muslims 1.1%. But although Mormons have been a persecuted population in this country to arguably a greater degree than Muslims have, we all know that there is no serious risk of “The Book of Mormon” incurring riots or terrorist attacks, while a similar musical about Mohammed (or Muhammad, or what have you) would almost certainly do so. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2363 "2019-01-04T04:47:53Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I can’t take seriously any complaint about “misspelling” names that are written in a different alphabet. It’s true that there are different transliteration conventions for Arabic script (as for many other non-roman scripts), but writing “Q’uran” for “Qur’an” is wrong in all of them. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > If the pronunciation is close, it’s spelled “right” IMO. Considering how little effort it takes to look up a spelling of a foreign word that is **actually** right in some recognized transliteration system rather than merely “right” in your personal opinion, why would you continue to make yourself look more ignorant than necessary by clinging to your misspelling? > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Your analogy is terrible, and Sam’s is good. Wrong on both counts. Mainstream Christians tend to look down on Mormonism as a small, weird and even blasphemous recent “made-up” mutation of Christianity, which is mainly why a satirical musical mocking Mormonism is culturally acceptable in a Christian context. Likewise, many Muslims similarly regard Baha’i as a small, weird, recent “made-up” blasphemous distortion of Islam. So comparing majority-Christian cultural reception of _The Book of Mormon_ with hypothesized majority-Muslim cultural reception of a hypothetical satirical musical about Baha’i is a better analogy than comparing it with hypothesized majority-Muslim cultural reception of a hypothetical satirical musical about Islam. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2364 "2019-01-04T06:26:07Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes, “interesting podcast conversation” is just how you’d title a thread if you were out to troll people. :rolleyes: Whatever douchebaggery argument you could have advanced from a podcast or two should have been sufficiently debated within a few pages. If you had created a thread with a title “I’m a KKK member, why am I wrong?” thread, you probably wouldn’t have received this much response. This dingleberry of a thread continues to somehow survive in the dark recesses of the internet because you come out with this “Am I a racist, or am I not a racist? You be the judge!” My take? You’re probably a kind racist. You believe others (especially blacks) are not your equal, but you’re not a douchebag to people in real life (too chickenshit to deal with the consequences maybe). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2365 "2019-01-04T06:52:09Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s true that there are different transliteration conventions for Arabic script (as for many other non-roman scripts), but writing “Q’uran” for “Qur’an” is wrong in all of them. Then I’ll just write “Koran” (which is how it was transliterated when I was growing up) and not worry about remembering where the silly apostrophe is supposed to go. :rolleyes: > [@Kimstu](#): > > Wrong on both counts. Mainstream Christians tend to look down on Mormonism as a small, weird and even blasphemous recent “made-up” mutation of Christianity, which is mainly why a satirical musical mocking Mormonism is culturally acceptable in a Christian context. Likewise, many Muslims similarly regard Baha’i as a small, weird, recent “made-up” blasphemous distortion of Islam. > > So comparing majority-Christian cultural reception of _The Book of Mormon_ with hypothesized majority-Muslim cultural reception of a hypothetical satirical musical about Baha’i is a better analogy than comparing it with hypothesized majority-Muslim cultural reception of a hypothetical satirical musical about Islam. No. This is a good example of that “not even wrong” concept. I was never talking about the cultural reception by the majority culture. I was talking about the danger posed by the minority culture if they are offended by the majority’s mockery of their religion. As in, literal danger. I was pretty clear about that, referring (as Sam Harris did) to the insurance and security issues. So where you’re getting all this about the majority culture’s attitude toward the putative musical, I have no earthly clue. The only way their attitude would be relevant is in their well-founded fear that it would provoke riots and terrorist attacks. If Muslims had not established that they are basically “not to be trifled with” in this way, why would the majority American culture care? Oh, sure: some left wingers would have a hard time about it, but we haven’t even been able to get rid of the racist name for the Washington, D.C. football team, nor the racist imagery of the Cleveland baseball team’s mascot, so why would you think this much smaller and more historically accurate affront would be so different? > [@asahi](#): > > Whatever douchebaggery argument you could have advanced from a podcast or two should have been sufficiently debated within a few pages. This thread is a catch-all for topics related to Sam Harris’s podcast: the SDMB equivalent of the Sam Harris subreddit, which has flourished for years and is not a “troll thread”. There are lots of fairly evergreen “IDW” issues to dig into, as well as things that come up in the news. > [@asahi](#): > > My take? You’re probably a kind racist. You believe others (especially blacks) are not your equal, but you’re not a douchebag to people in real life (too chickenshit to deal with the consequences maybe). You are right: I do believe others are not my equal. And yes, I’m still kind to them. But not because I’m too cowardly to turn my supposed racist hostility toward people in real life, but because _it’s not hostility_. I really do believe in Rawls’s “original position” concept, that none of us deserve any credit for our genetic, financial, or cultural inheritance. I’m not a fucking Nazi, who thinks the genetically weak or disabled should be thrown in furnaces! I have sympathy for those who were born with less than I was, and I want to help them. Is that patronizing? Sure. But it’s very far from hateful. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2366 "2019-01-04T06:59:54Z")
Missed the edit window, and wanted to add: ETA: A RL example. In the town we used to live in before moving up here to Minnesota, we have a studio apartment in the house we own that we rent out, mostly to college students. Nearly half the time, it gets rented to black tenants, perhaps because we advertise ourselves as “progressive landlords” and make a big thing out of being non-discriminatory. But the truth is that I am discriminatory, in a way. When my black tenants get behind on rent (as has happened recently once again with the current tenant) I always cut them way more slack than I do with white tenants. That’s my personal little “reparations”, maybe, or just my sympathy for them as I described. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2367 "2019-01-04T07:11:26Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You are right: I do believe others are not my equal. And yes, I’m still kind to them. But not because I’m too cowardly to turn my supposed racist hostility toward people in real life, but because _it’s not hostility_. I really do believe in Rawls’s “original position” concept, that none of us deserve any credit for our genetic, financial, or cultural inheritance. I’m not a fucking Nazi, who thinks the genetically weak or disabled should be thrown in furnaces! I have sympathy for those who were born with less than I was, and I want to help them. Is that patronizing? Sure. But it’s very far from hateful. Is it possible that you’re just an amateur pseudo-intellect who has no idea what you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2368 "2019-01-04T08:17:48Z")
That’s just, like, your opinion, man. ETA: With the exception of “amateur”, which I accept without insult. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2369 "2019-01-04T10:21:32Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > My take? You’re probably a kind racist. You believe others (especially blacks) are not your equal, but you’re not a douchebag to people in real life (too chickenshit to deal with the consequences maybe). You’re enabling him. There is no kindness in his position. He’s purely here to promote the idea that other races are inferior to his. He does this in a safe space, where the people he denigrates cannot do anything other than tell him to fuck off, because cowardly racists like him have long since learned that making that sort of comment in the physical presence of those “inferior” beings don’t work out well for them. If he thought for a second he could do it in reality he would. That is his goal - achieving a shift in “acceptable discourse” to the point he can share his beliefs in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2370 "2019-01-04T10:44:02Z")
Just read an interesting post on intelligence and genetic inheritance. If intelligence is a genetically heritable trait, why does it not appear to increase sharply in populations? Well, it seems to be negatively selected for. Having a higher intelligence than ones peers means less reproductive activity. And really, reproduction is the only thing evolution cares about. Everything else is just means to an end. I do wonder how applicable these results are to pre-contraception human existence though. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2371 "2019-01-04T10:47:07Z")
Kumquat: If you think I am out to make black people feel bad, you are a million miles away from understanding my most fundamental drives and motivations. Telling them the warm, nurturing school they attend is a “failing” school because their test scores average lower than white kids is what makes them feel bad, while unfairly throwing talented and hardworking educators under the bus. Render, interesting. Have you seen the movie “Idiocracy” or the creepy story it is based on? ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2372 "2019-01-04T12:17:39Z")
No, I haven’t, I am reserving the term for current politics:) ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2373 "2019-01-04T13:44:13Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > No, of course not. A _trolling_ thread you’d title “Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of ‘Bell Curve’ fame)”. You’d want to mention the names of the prominent cultural commentator, and the controversial, discredited academic. You might even throw in the title of Murray’s book, in case readers didn’t recognize his name, and you had to make sure that everyone knew you wanted to say controversial things about race and racism. Have to make certain all the doggies hear the whistle. Indeed. His getting his jollies. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > That would be risky for sure, although I think the result would more likely be a black eye than a severed head. so exactly the same risk as in the Morocco, bigot asshole. > [@](#): > > And you think this is okay? I certainly don’t. And I don’t think it would happen in a Western nation. But then, I still think what the police are doing in those countries amounts to protection of those tourists from a potential mob. “those countries…” You can indeed be expelled as a tourist on a tourist visa from a Western European nation if you are arrested for disturding the peace. Rarely it is worth the effort and the expense. So it is the case as well for the Moroccan case. But I am sure you will be salivating with another bigot robot search for something to engage in the Recreational bigot outrage over now. So your thinking is just your stupid ignorant bigot slide. > [@](#): > > What about gay people? What about them? My neighbor in my Moroccan apartment building is gay. So what? No one cares. Your RO fantasy trolling is boring. > [@](#): > > I have a feeling I’d get in hot water in a place where they imprison and flog atheist bloggers, or assassinate them. so don’t go to the Saudi Arabia. does not have anything to do with the Morocco It is more likely you will get in trouble for being a racist asshole. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2374 "2019-01-04T14:18:06Z")
Do you live in Morocco, **Ramira**? If so, I should have asked you for recommendations when we visited my sister-in-law last year in Casablanca (and a week in Marrakech). We loved it, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2375 "2019-01-04T14:20:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Kumquat: If you think I am out to make black people feel bad, you are a million miles away from understanding my most fundamental drives and motivations. I thought I’d been clear. You aren’t repeating your vacuous spiel to make black people feel bad. You’re repeating it again and again in the hope that it will force the window of acceptable dialogue just a little bit further open, preferably by getting similar racists to keep repeating it themselves. Because if you can get this to be acceptable, then you can push just a little bit further, then further again, then further again. Because then you can really start venting the dark, dark bile that fills your soul. Really start kicking back at all these damned uppity ethnics who dare to consider themselves your equal, put them back into their inferior place. Make things great again, maybe. I know what you are, fucko. You’re not a troll, you’re a true believer. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2376 "2019-01-04T14:57:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you live in Morocco, **Ramira**? If so, I should have asked you for recommendations when we visited my sister-in-law last year in Casablanca (and a week in Marrakech). We loved it, by the way. Not full time. I have a residence there and a lot of the family there. Very good you had the nice visit. Casablanca is for business, but I am sure Marrakech was fun, and you should visit Fez for the history and the Draa. You can also laugh at the bigot’s idea that the shabby little Moroccan police man outnumbered by thousands in djmaa el fnaa with no gun is protecting the hordes of the French, the German and other tourists from “mobs” ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2377 "2019-01-04T14:58:25Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I thought I’d been clear. You aren’t repeating your vacuous spiel to make black people feel bad. You’re repeating it again and again in the hope that it will force the window of acceptable dialogue just a little bit further open, preferably by getting similar racists to keep repeating it themselves. Because if you can get this to be acceptable, then you can push just a little bit further, then further again, then further again. > > Because then you can really start venting the dark, dark bile that fills your soul. Really start kicking back at all these damned uppity ethnics who dare to consider themselves your equal, put them back into their inferior place. Make things great again, maybe. > > I know what you are, fucko. You’re not a troll, you’re a true believer. Agree. But he is also Troll as he also play for the attention and the provocation, but on the bigotry and the racism fronts, he is the true believer, yes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2378 "2019-01-04T15:22:48Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Not full time. I have a residence there and a lot of the family there. > > Very good you had the nice visit. Casablanca is for business, but I am sure Marrakech was fun, and you should visit Fez for the history and the Draa. Yes, we enjoyed Marrakech the most. The food was amazing – especially mechoui (roasted lamb). The best roasted lamb I’ve ever had. We stayed in a beautiful riad. And I miss being able to get fresh orange juice on every corner for a few coins. Next time hopefully we can go to Fez. > [@](#): > > You can also laugh at the bigot’s idea that the shabby little Moroccan police man outnumbered by thousands in djmaa el fnaa with no gun is protecting the hordes of the French, the German and other tourists from “mobs” I do indeed. Almost everyone was extremely friendly and welcoming. The only slightly annoying thing was that most Moroccans addressed me, the one person in our group (myself, my wife, her two sisters, and our nephew) who isn’t fluent in French. More annoying to my wife and her sisters than me, likely. What is the flag of your avatar picture, if you don’t mind sharing? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2379 "2019-01-04T15:35:07Z")
The pseudo flag of the Imasmouden on the tricouleur with the tizerai on it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2380 "2019-01-04T15:42:22Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The pseudo flag of the Imasmouden on the tricouleur with the tizerai on it. Cool! Googling gives me some fascinating history to read. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=118) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=120)