# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 120
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2381 "2019-01-04T16:00:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cool! Googling gives me some fascinating history to read. Thanks. the flag is a pseudo flag, sometimes used by the Chleuh identity activists, the usage of the republican tricouleur is a hint… Not that I am an activist. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2382 "2019-01-04T17:18:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You are right: I do believe others are not my equal. And yes, I’m still kind to them. But not because I’m too cowardly to turn my supposed racist hostility toward people in real life, but because _it’s not hostility_. I really do believe in Rawls’s “original position” concept, that none of us deserve any credit for our genetic, financial, or cultural inheritance. I’m not a fucking Nazi, who thinks the genetically weak or disabled should be thrown in furnaces! I have sympathy for those who were born with less than I was, and I want to help them. Is that patronizing? Sure. But it’s very far from hateful. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Missed the edit window, and wanted to add: > > ETA: A RL example. In the town we used to live in before moving up here to Minnesota, we have a studio apartment in the house we own that we rent out, mostly to college students. Nearly half the time, it gets rented to black tenants, perhaps because we advertise ourselves as “progressive landlords” and make a big thing out of being non-discriminatory. But the truth is that I am discriminatory, in a way. When my black tenants get behind on rent (as has happened recently once again with the current tenant) I always cut them way more slack than I do with white tenants. That’s my personal little “reparations”, maybe, or just my sympathy for them as I described. Neither benevolent racism or hostile racism are kind. Your actions aren’t “reparations”, because you aren’t treating your tenants as equals and defining their identity based on the non-scientific categorization of race. You are taking your implicit biases and taking explicit actions. At least you admit that you are explicitly racist now, which is a forward step. But you are not a progressive, hell you aren’t even a liberal in the classic sense as you don’t seem to believe protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual is the central problem of politics. It sounds like you wear the “progressive” label as a badge or a brand like wearing Prada more than actually believing in the world view. While we all are imperfect and often hypocrites, your above posts are truly antithetical to “progressive” politics. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2383 "2019-01-04T19:23:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No. This is a good example of that “not even wrong” concept. I was never talking about the cultural reception by the majority culture. I was talking about the danger posed by the minority culture if they are offended by the majority’s mockery of their religion. As in, literal danger. I was pretty clear about that, referring (as Sam Harris did) to the insurance and security issues. So where you’re getting all this about the majority culture’s attitude toward the putative musical, I have no earthly clue. The only way their attitude would be relevant is in their well-founded fear that it would provoke riots and terrorist attacks. If Muslims had not established that they are basically “not to be trifled with” in this way, why would the majority American culture care? Oh, sure: some left wingers would have a hard time about it, but we haven’t even been able to get rid of the racist name for the Washington, D.C. football team, nor the racist imagery of the Cleveland baseball team’s mascot, so why would you think this much smaller and more historically accurate affront would be so different? Look, I’m perfectly willing to concede that at this current period in time Muslims have significantly more than their fair share of violent religious extremists, and that and also more than their fair share of intolerant regimes. Theocracy bad m’kay. But there is no reason to believe that this is something specific the the Muslim religion and even less reason to believe that it is related to the genetic ancestry of its adherents. There have been theocratic regimes in pretty much every religion, and in all of those saying bad things about whatever prevailing theory about the divine is floating around could get you into pretty hot water (or boliing oil). Even the old US of A is not immune to[violent religious suppression](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_violence). However due to guns, germs, steel and a bit of luck, us white folk have come out on top and have developed a largely secular Democracy. Yeah us! We can afford to be tolerant of all sorts of difference because we know that none of them are a threat to our way of life (although the rise of secularism and multicultrualism is causing some to question this, hence Trump). But for those we pushed down on our way to the top its not quite so clear, and when you are down trodden, beaten up, humiliated and utterly outclassed militarily it is natural to find solace in a higher power that can lay some whoop ass on your oppressors. But again this is far more related to Geopolitical history and happenstance, and oppression of minorities then it is to the specifics of the higher power in question. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2384 "2019-01-04T19:42:52Z")
I have never said it is something genetic causing this difference in the way Muslims act. A few hundred years ago, the ancestors of today’s Westerners, with the same genes today’s Westerners have, were doing the same shit or worse. In a few more centuries, I’m hopeful that Muslim countries will also have joined the modern, secular world. But right now in 2019 it is what it is, and that’s the period of history I have to live in. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2385 "2019-01-04T20:20:16Z")
Rat avatar, are you seriously maintaining that it is equally unethical to be biased toward offering black people extra help as it is to try to deny them equal opportunity in education, housing and employment? That’s insane. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2386 "2019-01-04T22:01:25Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Then I’ll just write “Koran” (which is how it was transliterated when I was growing up) and not worry about remembering where the silly apostrophe is supposed to go. “Koran” is a perfectly cromulent, although somewhat old-fashioned, alternative spelling of “Qur’an”, so feel free to use it if the more modern transliteration is too difficult for you. If you just want help remembering how to spell “Qur’an”, though, it might be useful to note that the apostrophe represents the Arabic _hamza_ or glottal-stop sound, like what you hear at the beginning of the syllables of “uh-oh”. Putting the glottal stop right after the initial _qaf_ or “q” consonant would be pretty much unpronounceable: it would sound sort of like “Q. Uran”. The correct spelling represents the glottal stop correctly dividing the word at the syllable break, sort of like “Qur. An”. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I was never talking about the cultural reception by the majority culture. I was talking about the danger posed by the minority culture if they are offended by the majority’s mockery of their religion. That just makes your comparison look even more silly and cherry-picked. You (and Sam Harris) are clearly just shoehorning two entirely different religious histories into the oversimplified category of “minority culture”. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2387 "2019-01-04T22:16:11Z")
The point is not to focus on the LDS church: it’s just a convenient example because that musical happens to exist. The larger point is that you could produce a musical (or TV show, or movie, etc.) poking fun at any religion’s origins; and as long as there was nothing completely obscene and ahistorical about it (like, say, presenting Jesus as a pedophile—note that describing Mohammed as such is not so ahistorical), the most you would likely get in opposition is pickets and a lot of griping on cable news. Whereas we all know that Islam uniquely has made it clear they are “not to be trifled with” (this, BTW, does not come from Sam but is my contribution, and one I’m pleased with). It’s the only religion cartoonists, even in the West, take a serious mortal risk by lampooning. “South Park” even had their Mohammed episode withdrawn from circulation. “South Park”! A show with no sacred cows does, it turns out, have one sacred cow after all. (BTW, if you look closely at some of the languages of East Africa, I suspect you might find some of them “unpronounceable” by your standards, and yet they are pronounced. But that’s neither here nor there.) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2388 "2019-01-04T23:56:05Z")
And I call myself “progressive” because I support and celebrate every item on this list: > If that’s not progressive, what is it? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2389 "2019-01-05T01:26:21Z")
A bigot that agrees with me is still a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2390 "2019-01-05T02:22:39Z")
Maybe so, but the question was why I was supposedly not a progressive. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2391 "2019-01-05T05:10:33Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > The larger point is that you could produce a musical (or TV show, or movie, etc.) poking fun at any religion’s origins; and as long as there was nothing completely obscene and ahistorical about it (like, say, presenting Jesus as a pedophile—note that describing Mohammed as such is not so ahistorical), the most you would likely get in opposition is pickets and a lot of griping on cable news. A) This false claim completely ignores the fact that plenty of fictional depictions of Jesus, for example, have provoked not just “pickets and griping” but actual violence and death threats from American Christians. B) Yes, it is in fact completely ahistorical to describe Muhammad as “a pedophile” based on historical accounts of his having entered into a marital contract with a young girl in his widowerhood. Millions of medieval people worldwide accepted official forms of marriage between adult men and pre-adult girls, even prepubescent ones. Generally it was considered inappropriate to **consummate** a marriage (or have extramarital sex) with a girl who hadn’t reached puberty, but there is no historical evidence that Muhammad ever did or condoned any such thing. So if you’re going to call Muhammad a “pedophile”, for accuracy’s sake you need to make it clear that what you’re calling his “pedophilia” was regarded at the time by most Muslims, Christians, and others as completely normal and responsible marital behavior (and would also have been so regarded by Jesus and Moses before him). > [@SlackerInc](#): > > BTW, if you look closely at some of the languages of East Africa, I suspect you might find some of them “unpronounceable” by your standards Nope. Just because you can’t tell the difference between “exotic” but phonetically normal linguistic features, such as East African click consonants, and outright erroneous misrepresentations that violate laws of phonetics, such as your misspelling “Q’uran”, doesn’t mean that I can’t. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2392 "2019-01-05T05:43:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And I call myself “progressive” because I support and celebrate every item on this list: > > [https://twitter.com/slackerinc/status/1081337647908483072?s=21](https://twitter.com/slackerinc/status/1081337647908483072?s=21) > > If that’s not progressive, what is it? “Progressive” is not a synonym for “Democrat” but note the complete lack of surprise from other posters that you don’t know your basic logic or syllogisms. Not all progressives are Democrats, not all Democrats are progressive. Hell the terms aren’t even well defined, but it is damn clear that being a self admitted racist you don’t care about economic and social equality. Why are you so reluctant to own your beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2393 "2019-01-05T06:12:21Z")
Related to your twitter avatar BTW, which is from the Grateful Dead Obama show log, I have actually had the pleasure of knowing Bob Weir, he would think you are an asshole. While you will dismiss this as “religion” here is a video. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OnEcqXkIls) > [@](#): > > "If you got gay friends, tell them “Sorry about what happened today.” You know, it’s funny – the Lt. Governor of Texas and a distinguished representative in the house from Georgia… Well, that guy last week was reading quotes from the bible saying how gay people deserved to die. And today, after the incident down in Florida, the Lt. Governor tweeted that, well, “They’re gonna reap what they sow.” I tell you what. > > I want to ask you a question: Is there a difference between that mindset and the mindset of the folks in the Taliban or ISIS? The hatred and intolerance is the same. They may pull it from different books, but it’s the same f\*\*king thing. > > Register and vote. Get those a\*\*holes out of there. Your hatred and intolerance is the same. You may pull it from different podcast, but it’s the same. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2394 "2019-01-05T06:36:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > A) This false claim completely ignores the fact that plenty of fictional depictions of Jesus, for example, have provoked not just “pickets and griping” but actual violence and death threats from American Christians. Cite? Something from this millennium, please, and involving actual violence and not just “death threats” (I received the latter on the IMDb boards, for chrissakes—they are a dime a dozen). And how about if instead of “pedophile”, I just say “Mohammed fucked prepubescent girls who were essentially sex slaves that became part of his harem without any meaningful consent”. Is that accurate enough for you? :dubious: > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > “Progressive” is not a synonym for “Democrat” Indeed not, but I’m not asking “If I call myself a Democrat, how can I not be a progressive?” I’m asking “If I strongly support every item on that list, how can I not be a progressive?” And I still have not gotten an answer. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Related to your twitter avatar BTW, which is from the Grateful Dead Obama show log, I have actually had the pleasure of knowing Bob Weir, he would think you are an asshole. Well, Bobby songs suck and deflate the psychedelic energy every time they pop up in an otherwise dank live set, so I don’t really give a shit. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2395 "2019-01-05T06:50:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Indeed not, but I’m not asking “If I call myself a Democrat, how can I not be a progressive?” I’m asking “If I strongly support every item on that list, how can I not be a progressive?” And I still have not gotten an answer. All students carry backpacks. My grandfather carries a backpack. Therefore, my grandfather is a student. How hard is it to understand that “progressive” and “Democrat” are two different words. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Well, Bobby songs suck and deflate the psychedelic energy every time they pop up in an otherwise dank live set, so I don’t really give a shit. “America is still mostly xenophobic and racist.” - Jerry ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2396 "2019-01-05T07:47:24Z")
Sure, they elected Trump—but not with my help! ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2397 "2019-01-05T19:16:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Cite? Something from this millennium It is so funny he thinks this is a [hard claim](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/us/minnesota-mosque-bombing-suspects.html). > [@](#): > > And how about if instead of “pedophile”, I just say “Mohammed fucked prepubescent girls who were essentially sex slaves that became part of his harem without any meaningful consent”. Is that accurate enough for you? :dubious: No it is inaccurate on the multiple levels you stupid vile bigot asshole, but you’re such a stupid pathetic attention whore that who cares… > [@Kimstu](#): > > B) Yes, it is in fact completely ahistorical to describe Muhammad as “a pedophile” based on historical accounts of his having entered into a marital contract with a young girl in his widowerhood. Yes, in fact [Mohammed was married to only Khadija](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad%27s_wives#Timeline_of_marriages) - and by all the accounts happily in a business partnership of equals - for a full 25 years, an equalitarian relationship that is certainly a healthier example of the gender balance than almost anything in the contemporary christian world (sadly of course the male chauvinists scholars of the later eras try to minimize or gloss over). Only after her death was the polygamy practised - and the records show clearly it was heavily oriented to the marrying of the widows and the allies as part of the typical dynastic politics of marriage that have held in the leadership world - royals, tribal, whatever - throughout to the modern era. The Dynastic alliance marriages. Of these, one girl, Aicha, is young and some traditions claim very young although other internal textual evidence from unbiased hadith (the cross references of ages of her family, cousins, etc) show the youngest ages claimed for Aicha are chronologically impossible. > [@](#): > > Millions of medieval people worldwide accepted official forms of marriage between adult men and pre-adult girls, even prepubescent ones. Generally it was considered inappropriate to **consummate** a marriage (or have extramarital sex) with a girl who hadn’t reached puberty, but there is no historical evidence that Muhammad ever did or condoned any such thing. Indeed > [@](#): > > So if you’re going to call Muhammad a “pedophile”, for accuracy’s sake you need to make it clear that what you’re calling his “pedophilia” was regarded at the time by most Muslims, Christians, and others as completely normal and responsible marital behavior (and would also have been so regarded by Jesus and Moses before him). Indeed, but bigots only want to throw around insults and provocations, of course this dim person parrots bigotted podcasts he has heard, trying to flatter himself with a pretended intelligence (failing of course badly). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2398 "2019-01-05T19:52:37Z")
You don’t understand how corollaries work, do you? > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > All students carry backpacks. > My grandfather carries a backpack. > Therefore, my grandfather is a student. The real conclusion is “All students are my grandfather.” ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2399 "2019-01-05T20:34:52Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > …this podcast, but I would ask that you actually \*listen \*to it in its entirety before weighing in. I do not, and likely never will, have time enough to listen to a podcast over 3 minutes long. I have never clicked any hotlinks to YouTube that are not on YouTube already. (Not since 2005 and Rick Astley). Podcasts and YouTube snorefests are too low in information/ time ratio and entertainment value/ time to bother with. TV ones have higher production values and are made by professionals; this is probably why I will watch, say, Blue Planet. Got a transcript? I might read that quickly, but if the beginning is crap I am not likely to read to the end. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/2400 "2019-01-05T20:58:42Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > I do not, and likely never will, have time enough to listen to a podcast over 3 minutes long. > I have never clicked any hotlinks to YouTube that are not on YouTube already. (Not since 2005 and Rick Astley). > Podcasts and YouTube snorefests are too low in information/ time ratio and entertainment value/ time to bother with. TV ones have higher production values and are made by professionals; this is probably why I will watch, say, Blue Planet. > > Got a transcript? I might read that quickly, but if the beginning is crap I am not likely to read to the end. This is a slight hijack but you really should give podcasts another chance! The one referenced in this thread may be a crock of shit, but there are some very, very good podcasts putting out great info nowadays. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=119) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=121)