# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/661 "2017-06-20T18:00:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Bernie himself is not a “fellow Democrat”. No, but he caucuses with them. He votes with them. Maybe he doesn’t have that magical “D” after his name, but he’s still on the left wing of the political spectrum. Even though you hate him, I bet you’d still side with him over Trump. > [@](#): > > That aside, I remember seeing this kind of complaint a few times during the campaign, and it’s pretty hilarious. “Bernie bro” _is_ an insult applied from without, by Sanders critics. “Bernhead” is not. It comes from hard-core Bernie fans themselves, calling _themselves_ that. You know, like Deadheads? Sorry, I didn’t know that. I just remember you once compared Sanders to Robespierre of the French Revolution. :dubious: Based on your posting history, I interpreted it as a term of abuse, and not a term of endearment. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/662 "2017-06-20T18:25:41Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > No, but he caucuses with them. He votes with them. Yes. And he attacks them. He calls them corrupt. He paints them as weak-kneed pawns of Wall Street. He sours millions of left-leaning young people (like my 17yo son) on the party, weakening its strength among the very same cohort we need to counter all the crotchety old white folks on the other side. > [@Blalron](#): > > Even though you hate him, I bet you’d still side with him over Trump. Sure, but that’s a low bar. The list of people I’d side with over Trump is long and includes many Republicans. If the general election ballot featured Bernie vs. Romney, I’d vote Romney. Same goes for Kasich, Huntsman, or Fiorina. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/663 "2017-06-20T21:28:15Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes. And he attacks them. He calls them corrupt. He paints them as weak-kneed pawns of Wall Street. He sours millions of left-leaning young people (like my 17yo son) on the party, weakening its strength among the very same cohort we need to counter all the crotchety old white folks on the other side. On the contrary, we’re trying to **save** the Democratic Party. The Clinton/Obama corporatist wing has had it’s chance. Look what it got us. Trump is President. The GOP controls all three branches of the federal government, and the state legislatures of 32 states. Time for some new leadership in the party. We tried it your way, and your way has failed. I’m willing to roll the dice on a new strategy. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/664 "2017-06-20T22:23:20Z")
I’m sure that’s exactly what McGoverniks were saying in 1972, including the Clintons and Gary Hart, all of whom were stung enough by that wipeout to tack to the center strategically. And what the Bernie crowd never seems to understand is that the DNC is not ultimately defined by its DC leadership, but by the state parties who elect the DNC members who select those leaders. If the Bernie wing wants to change the DNC, throwing a fit every four years during a losing presidential primary fight isn’t going to get 'er done. You will have to go and join all the county parties and attend regularly, help organize soup dinners and July Fourth parades, get your people elected to leadership positions at the county level. Then from there, you get your people elected to leadership positions at the state level. Then and only then, if you pull that off in enough states, you can take over the DNC. But I see no sign of that happening. My college town was lousy with Bernie stickers last year, but at the county party meetings, everyone was for Hillary. Most were over 50, but the few young people were also Hillary backers. I have heard the same story from several others around the country. So my impression is that either there is something about that group that leads them not to understand how the internal small-d democratic apparatus of the party works, or–less charitably–maybe they don’t really care. Maybe they can’t be bothered to put in all that effort and week-in, week-out commitment, but just want to take an extortionist shortcut: “You boring old geezers better get to work and remake the party the way we want it to be by 2019, or we’ll throw another tantrum and give it to the Republicans again. Real nice party you’ve got here: shame if anything happened to it.” That about the long and short of it? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/665 "2017-06-22T04:43:20Z")
> [@Rick\_Sanchez](#): > > Your grasp of English is so piss poor that you can’t even use the word ‘the’ correctly. You’re really in no position to be snarky about **SlackerInc’s** grasp of French, or any other language. Spoken like someone who has never studied a foreign language. Much like **SlackerInc** clearly knows nothing at all of either genetics or childhood development, not even at a junior high school level; given that he thinks a correlation to maternal IQ specifically would point to genetics. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/666 "2017-06-22T04:58:39Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > You should never call anyone a bigot before you have read their book. I’ve read about two pages of _Mein Kampf._ Is that sufficient to call A. Hitler a bigot, or…? ETA: On those pages, he was whining about “bow-legged Jews.” But hey, maybe that was irony! e\_e > [@nachtmusick](#): > > No I didn’t. > > Are you telling me I shouldn’t read that book? What if, for whatever reason, I decide I want to? > > Would you burn all copies of that book so as to prevent me from reading it? > > As long as we are starting a fire, how about we throw Charles Murray’s work upon the blaze? Or Sam Harris’s? > > Surely society would benefit if these foul ideas were expunged in the flames. Wow, that’s not what we thought you meant. Calling someone a bigot is not the same as burning his bigoted book. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/667 "2017-06-22T05:46:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But liberals are afraid to say that, and instead take the quixotic position that the real threat (a la “Handmaid’s Tale”) is conservative Christianity. The latter is no picnic, mind you. But it’s centuries ahead of the ideology so prevalent in the Muslim world. You were raised atheist, right? You don’t know whereof you speak. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Sure, but that’s a low bar. The list of people I’d side with over Trump is long and includes many Republicans. If the general election ballot featured Bernie vs. Romney, I’d vote Romney. Same goes for Kasich, Huntsman, or Fiorina. Then you’re “conservative,” though perhaps not a “movement conservative.” > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Then and only then, if you pull that off in enough states, you can take over the DNC. But I see no sign of that happening. My college town was lousy with Bernie stickers last year, but at the county party meetings, everyone was for Hillary. Most were over 50, but the few young people were also Hillary backers. I have heard the same story from several others around the country. My county’s mass meeting was mostly Bernie supporters. Granted, we may been an exception in the state; but I’d speculate that many places with a combination of a lot of manufacturing and weak local union leadership were the same way. We even had an independent show up who chose to join the party and go to the state caucus for Bernie. How many of those did the Hillary side have? How many independents have been becoming Democrats since 1992? How many Democrats have been becoming independents in that time? But hey, maybe the New Atheists will show us the way! Sure! Bunch of cocky Aspie internet atheists who tell black people that they’re too dumb to be educated and denounce people from the Middle East & North Africa as savages. Big help. Hey, you know what? I’d be content to let you and Sam Harris take the Democratic Party brand, anyway. Put his name on it. Make him its face! Right there in the best Anglo-Saxon nationalist tradition with Andrew Jackson and James K. Polk. You can be the party of Indian Removal and Manifest Destiny again. I bet David Duke will join! You might even get more votes than the party of Pelosi, Clinton, Schumer, and Obama! You’ll still lose, mind. I just want you losing over in your own deluded white nationalist corner, while\* real \*progressives, who know that _Brave New World_ is not a progressive prescription, start over with a Labor Party or something. Dummkopf. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/668 "2017-06-22T06:52:18Z")
One thing I know, **foolsguinea** is _damn_ sure that while skin tone and height are genetically heritable intelligence isn’t. Color me convinced. Creating special exceptions for feel-good political expediency is always the firm ground of reason. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/669 "2017-06-22T10:03:22Z")
Height (mostly) isn’t genetic, though. It’s pretty much a function of nutrition \* height of the mother. At least on the “population group” level, it isn’t genetic. Netherlanders born in the Depression were very short. Netherlanders today are very tall. Same genes, different diet. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/670 "2017-06-22T10:50:57Z")
Telling yourself that slavery happened to the blacks because they were too dumb to stop it is, in fact, “creating a special exception for feel-good political expediency.” (What inferiority led to the Shoah, by the way? Or the enslavement of the Irish? Or the Balkans War twenty years ago?) It’s nonsense to say, “Well, of course we expect differences.” Please, point to racial differences in color perception, or hearing range, or the sugar content of breast milk. Or number of phalanges on extremities, or number of teeth. Where are the Storm Giants? Where are the men with their faces in their chests? Centaurs? Merfolk? All of these were expected by the ancients, surely they must exist, yes? What _genetic_ differences do we see in population groups again? Lactose tolerance, melanin concentration, and sickle-cell trait are specific positive environmental adaptations. Other than that: Eyelid shape? Earlobe shape? Shape of the maxilla? Whoo, yeah, some real meaningful differences there. As I said upthread, we can explain differences in cognitive development in environmental ways without resorting to genes. A correlation with maternal IQ, specifically, points\* away\* from genetics and toward nurture. Do I need to explain Mendel to you? Ockham’s Razor implies that there _may simply not be_ any meaningful genetic difference. This interview with James Heckman (linked I don’t know how many pages ago) is really interesting, and a lot more so than the wild speculating about genes and race: [https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/the-region/interview-with-james-heckman](https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/the-region/interview-with-james-heckman) He says there are real differences in ability, on the individual level, that derive from early childhood nurture. When something looks heritable, there could be a difference from family culture, from something happening in gestation, from epigenetics, sure. A straight-up bunch of “smart genes”? I still don’t buy it. Even the researchers recently talking about finding genes linked to intelligence aren’t really convincing, and I doubt they’re really entirely convinced. What was that quote again? From [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/science/52-genes-human-intelligence.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/science/52-genes-human-intelligence.html) > [@](#): > > In the new study, Dr. Posthuma and her colleagues limited their research to people of European descent because that raised the odds of finding common genetic variants linked to intelligence. > > But other gene studies have shown that variants in one population can fail to predict what people are like in other populations. Different variants turn out to be important in different groups, and this may well be the case with intelligence. > > “If you try to predict height using the genes we’ve identified in Europeans in Africans, you’d predict all Africans are five inches shorter than Europeans, which isn’t true,” Dr. Posthuma said. Think about the implications of that. Even genes for height aren’t consistent in other populations. Do we actually know what we’re doing with genetic analysis, or are we mostly kidding ourselves? Also: > [@](#): > > In a significant advance in the study of mental ability, a team of European and American scientists announced on Monday that they had identified 52 genes linked to intelligence in nearly 80,000 people. > > These genes do not determine intelligence, however. Their combined influence is minuscule, the researchers said, suggesting that thousands more are likely to be involved and still await discovery. Just as important, intelligence is profoundly shaped by the environment. So, yeah. This is very exciting for them, but it’s also very preliminary. This is still less than a clear win for the genetic heritability of\* g\*. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/671 "2017-07-12T19:38:19Z")
New article on Charles Murray: > **[Why Is Charles Murray Odious?](https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2017/07/why-is-charles-murray-odious)** > > Less because of his empirical methods than because of his horrible moral values… Apparently Murray is much, much worse than even I thought: In his book “Human Accomplishment” > [@](#): > > he attempts to prove using statistics which cultures are objectively the most “excellent” and “accomplished,” demonstrating mathematically the inherent superiority of Western thought throughout the arts and sciences. > [@](#): > > Murray purports to show that Europeans have produced the most “significant” people in literature, philosophy, art, music, and the sciences, and then posits some theories as to what makes cultures able to produce better versus worse things. The problem that immediately arises, of course, is that there is no actual objective way of determining a person’s “significance.” In order to provide such an “objective” measure, Murray uses (I am not kidding you) the frequency of people’s appearances in encyclopedias and biographical dictionaries. In this way, he says, he has shown their “eminence,” therefore objectively shown their accomplishments in their respective fields. And by then showing which cultures they came from, he can rank each culture by its cultural and scientific worth. Murray discounts anything produced by black people (except for Duke Ellington – the single one that gets mentioned), including all genres of music produced by black people: > [@](#): > > Before 1950, black people had invented gospel, blues, jazz, R&B, samba, meringue, ragtime, zydeco, mento, calypso, and bomba. During the early 20th century, in the United States alone, the following composers and players were active: Ma Rainey, W.C. Handy, Scott Joplin, Louis Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, James P. Johnson, Fats Waller, Count Basie, Cab Calloway, Art Tatum, Charlie Parker, Charles Mingus, Lil Hardin Armstrong, Bessie Smith, Billie Holliday, Sister Rosetta Tharpe, Mahalia Jackson, J. Rosamond Johnson, Ella Fitzgerald, John Lee Hooker, Coleman Hawkins, Leadbelly, Earl Hines, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, Fats Navarro, Roy Brown, Wynonie Harris, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Blind Willie Johnson, Robert Johnson, Son House, Dinah Washington, Thelonious Monk, Muddy Waters, Art Blakey, Sarah Vaughan, Memphis Slim, Skip James, Louis Jordan, Ruth Brown, Big Jay McNeely, Paul Gayten, and Professor Longhair. (This list is partial.) When we talk about black American music of the early 20th century, we are talking about one of the most astonishing periods of cultural accomplishment in the history of civilization. We are talking about an unparalleled record of invention, the creation of some of the most transcendently moving and original artistic material that has yet emerged from the human mind. The significance of this achievement cannot be overstated. What’s more, it occurred without state sponsorship or the patronage of elites. In fact, it arose organically under conditions of brutal Jim Crow segregation and discrimination, in which black people had access to almost no mainstream institutions or material resources. None of these people count as significant to Murray. My god, what an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/672 "2017-07-13T16:40:37Z")
Funny how my similar point about black musicians was treated as though it was an insult or backhanded compliment at best. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/673 "2017-07-13T16:56:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Funny how my similar point about black musicians was treated as though it was an insult or backhanded compliment at best. It wasn’t remotely similar. You, without any genetic evidence, divided up different races/ethnicities into different supposed inherent competencies/abilities/geniuses; Murray, without any evidence of any kind, dismissed any achievement of any kind by black people (except for Duke Ellington), and was rightly excoriated for it. Do you agree with Murray, or do you agree with me and his critic that these points in his “Human Accomplishment” book are colossally stupid (and racist)? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/674 "2017-07-13T17:12:00Z")
After seeing how they were mischaracterized in the Vox pieces, I can’t say for sure. But do I agree with that (possible straw man) thesis as presented? No. Do I believe Western culture can be objectively shown to be the most excellent and accomplished? No. Do I _subjectively_ believe Western culture is the most excellent and accomplished? Yes, mos def. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/675 "2017-07-13T17:18:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > After seeing how they were mischaracterized in the Vox pieces, I can’t say for sure. But do I agree with that (possible straw man) thesis as presented? No. Do I believe Western culture can be objectively shown to be the most excellent and accomplished? No. Do I _subjectively_ believe Western culture is the most excellent and accomplished? Yes, mos def. Aren’t you worried that you might be hopelessly biased for Western culture since you are indeed a product and member of Western culture? And how many points do you deduct from Western culture for committing most of the worst atrocities (the Holocaust, American chattel slavery, the Holodomor, other European genocides, etc.) in human history? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/676 "2017-07-13T18:19:31Z")
Debatable. Tamerlane, the Khmer Rouge, the rape of Nanking, etc. And large portions of the Muslim world are engaged in an ongoing and enormous atrocity in their brutal subjugation of women. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/677 "2017-07-13T18:27:17Z")
You only answered half the question, and that answer demonstrates some likely strong bias to me. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/678 "2017-07-13T23:26:42Z")
No one lacks bias. But a lot of left wing Westerners (like my mom, who recently urged me to watch Oliver Stone’s cringe-inducingly obsequious Putin interviews with her) are reflexively biased against the West generally. The further anything is from containing or representing white, heterosexual, cisgender men, the more virtuous it is presumed to be. ETA: I realized after posting how white/male/cis Putin is. But he opposes the US, so that is good enough for Stone and my mom. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/679 "2017-07-13T23:37:56Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No one lacks bias. But a lot of left wing Westerners (like my mom, who recently urged me to watch Oliver Stone’s cringe-inducingly obsequious Putin interviews with her) are reflexively biased against the West generally. The further anything is from containing or representing white, heterosexual, cisgender men, the more virtuous it is presumed to be. > > ETA: I realized after posting how white/male/cis Putin is. But he opposes the US, so that is good enough for Stone and my mom. Why do you keep making these claims that only white supremacists make, yet act like Trump’s racism was a bad thing? The idea that there is prejudice against us white westerners is just fucking false. I’m reading the shit that shows up on /r/the\_donald. Stop it. Stop acting like right wing bullshit to excuse their own racism is actually legitimately true. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/680 "2017-07-14T00:18:58Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No one lacks bias. But a lot of left wing Westerners (like my mom, who recently urged me to watch Oliver Stone’s cringe-inducingly obsequious Putin interviews with her) are reflexively biased against the West generally. The further anything is from containing or representing white, heterosexual, cisgender men, the more virtuous it is presumed to be. > > ETA: I realized after posting how white/male/cis Putin is. But he opposes the US, so that is good enough for Stone and my mom. Oliver Stone’s idiocy has no more to do with “left wing Westerners” than any other random left wing idiot in entertainment. This sort of broad-brushing is just ridiculous and sounds pathetic (as well as being totally irrelevant to our conversation). White hetero cis men are not under attack. We’re doing fine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=35)