# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/741 "2018-03-30T21:19:01Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I am not an actual expert on human genetics so take this with a very large mountain of salt( but then I don’t believe you are either ), but I really rather doubt your time frame. Intelligence and what influences the human brain( and indeed how the brain even works)is such a hugely complicated affair, I wouldn’t be shocked if this is still being plausibly argued in the next century. But they don’t have to determine that a certain gene codes for amino acids in such a way as to make brain structure X do Y which causes an increase in aptitude Z. All they have to do is get enough people to sequence their genes and take a battery of tests. Then computers can look for correlations. As I understand it, this is already the way things stand with many pharmaceuticals, which is why the literature that comes with prescriptions so often says “The mechanism(s) by which Lambinex works are not well understood, but are hypothesized to include…”. Thanks to CRISPR, I expect they will be able to sub in “white genes” or “Asian genes” in those areas while preserving other racial characteristics like kinky hair and dark skin. And maybe that will work great, problem solved. I hope so! But maybe it will lead to unexpected genetic interactions that induce psychotic episodes or severe depression at the onset of puberty, and we’ll be like “oh fuck, what have we done?!?” Keep your fingers crossed… Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/742 "2018-03-30T21:26:03Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Thanks to CRISPR, I expect they will be able to sub in “white genes” or “Asian genes” in those areas while preserving other racial characteristics like kinky hair and dark skin. And maybe that will work great, problem solved. I hope so! But maybe it will lead to unexpected genetic interactions that induce psychotic episodes or severe depression at the onset of puberty, and we’ll be like “oh fuck, what have we done?!?” Thanks to hundreds of years of slavery, with the accompanying constant rape involved, I think that “white genes” have already been incorporated. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/743 "2018-03-30T21:44:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > A conclusion with no evidence. Seriously – black people as naturally better at music or rhythm? It’s hard to believe that someone could think that’s anything close to a scientific conclusion. That’s a laughable belief. Do you believe that Jews are naturally gifted with genetic tendencies towards dealing with money? **Blacks are genetically attracted to watermelon and fried chicken?** Come on! Bolding mine. I have no doubt black people are genetically attracted to watermelon and fried chicken. EVERYONE is genetically attracted to watermelon and fried chicken - that shit’s delicious! ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/744 "2018-03-30T22:09:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Thanks to hundreds of years of slavery, with the accompanying constant rape involved, I think that “white genes” have already been incorporated. Yes, and although black people HATE to talk about it, especially in mixed company, there is prejudice among African Americans based on skin tone. This can easily be understood in socialized terms in societies where “mulatto” was long a recognized category of people granted more rights by the white ruling class. But although that is not true in the U.S., this division exists, under the radar of most whites. And our first black president, a brilliant man to be sure, was the progeny of a white woman (maternal IQ being more significant in the heritability of IQ) and a father whose academic achievement despite growing up in a discriminatory colonial society shows him to be at the far right end of his people’s Bell curve. Meanwhile, descendants of slaves come from a gene pool that started with those who were not clever enough to avoid capture. They then spent hundreds of years in an environment that did not encourage academic aptitude to say the least. Then, after Reconstruction, when the North withdrew occupying troops (a heinous betrayal), the KKK systematically culled, through selective genocide, those blacks who went into politics, law, and education. But you think none of that had an effect? The majority of African Americans still live in the South, among the descendants of the whites who inflicted this culling on their great-great grandparents. But those in the North are mostly descendants of those who participated in another self-culling: the “Great Migration” of the early 20th century. It would be very interesting to compare the IQs of both groups. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/745 "2018-03-30T22:32:35Z")
Good god, you are one stupid son of a bitch. I don’t even think it’s worth it arguing with him, anymore people. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/746 "2018-03-30T22:53:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Meanwhile, descendants of slaves come from a gene pool that started with those who were not clever enough to avoid capture. Facts not in evidence. There is nothing to indicate that “cleverness” had anything to do with avoiding being sold into slavery. It wasn’t a matter of being smart enough not to step in a noose set on a trail. > [@](#): > > They then spent hundreds of years in an environment that did not encourage academic aptitude to say the least. Quite true, but doesn’t speak at all to genetic potential. > [@](#): > > Then, after Reconstruction, when the North withdrew occupying troops (a heinous betrayal), the KKK systematically culled, through selective genocide, those blacks who went into politics, law, and education. Again, facts not in evidence that this had any impact on the genetic potential of the population. We’re talking a few thousand people out of a population of more than 4 million( former slaves and free blacks in the north ). > [@](#): > > But you think none of that had an effect? Nope. I think the logic here is faulty. But I really shouldn’t re-engage in this interminable argument. It has been going on since I joined the board and just leads to long, twining, Möbius strip-like threads and headaches for me. It’s a weakness on my part - sometimes I can’t resist sticking my nose in these never-ending debates for a post or two. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/747 "2018-03-30T22:53:14Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Meanwhile, descendants of slaves come from a gene pool that started with those who were not clever enough to avoid capture. Do you genuinely believe that slavers ran round Africa catching slaves one at a time, and there was a form of natural selection where only the slow, dumb ones were taken? That’s even stupider than your paintballs in schools idea. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/748 "2018-03-30T22:54:13Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Good god, you are one stupid son of a bitch. I don’t even think it’s worth it arguing with him, anymore people. Translation: “I have no rebuttal, but I hate the implications of what you are saying, so I will sputter generic insults, declare victory, and retreat.” It’s flattering, really. 🙂 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/749 "2018-03-30T22:55:44Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Do you genuinely believe that slavers ran round Africa catching slaves one at a time Indeed not. Nice strawman though! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/750 "2018-03-30T23:05:58Z")
By your rationale, then, the Holocaust selected for Jewish intelligence because only Jews dumb enough to get rounded up and sent to camps were killed. I mean, “those not clever enough to avoid capture.” ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/751 "2018-03-30T23:12:08Z")
They didn’t get Einstein, did they? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/752 "2018-03-30T23:16:23Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Good god, you are one stupid son of a bitch. I don’t even think it’s worth it arguing with him, anymore people. You’re right. This idiocy doesn’t deserve a response. Especially when the last several times I brought up the scientific evidence (Flynn effect, Scarr study, inadequacy of racial categorizations, etc.), it was ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/753 "2018-03-30T23:23:33Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > They didn’t get Einstein, did they? > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk And “Ignore”. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/754 "2018-03-30T23:46:41Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > And “Ignore”. LOL Andy, I responded to all your Gish Gallup stuff early in the thread. I am on vacation right now, but if you can be patient, I will go back and dig it up again for you when I am back home and all unpacked. K? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/755 "2018-03-31T00:05:01Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > LOL > > Andy, I responded to all your Gish Gallup stuff early in the thread. I am on vacation right now, but if you can be patient, I will go back and dig it up again for you when I am back home and all unpacked. K? > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Not interested in your silliness any longer. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/756 "2018-03-31T00:19:07Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And our first black president, a brilliant man to be sure, was the progeny of a white woman (maternal IQ being more significant in the heritability of IQ) and a father whose academic achievement despite growing up in a discriminatory colonial society shows him to be at the far right end of his people’s Bell curve. Now I remember who you are. I’ve gotten in debates with you before (maybe even in this thread), and you made the claim that maternal IQ was more heritable than paternal IQ, and submitted as proof of your contention a paper that you clearly hadn’t understood at even a grade school level. When I pointed this out to you you claimed that you had a really high IQ and could provide paperwork to prove it, to which I replied that your failure to understand the paper you posted as a cite was all the IQ test I needed from you. By the way, children born to a white mother and black father had IQs about half a SD higher than children born to black mother and white father–that’s actually evidence against he genetic theory of race IQ differences. Think about it… ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/757 "2018-03-31T00:59:42Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > By the way, children born to a white mother and black father had IQs about half a SD higher than children born to black mother and white father–that’s actually evidence against he genetic theory of race IQ differences. Think about it… If the study only measured boys then I can’t see a reason why that should be evidence against the genetic theory, since assuming counterfactually that intelligence is mainly carried on the X chromosome, then boys would have all of this input from their mother, whereas _if this were true_ then you should see girls from both racial backgrounds have an equal intelligence. Although I guess it’s possible that intelligence is carried in the [del]mitichlorians[/del] mitochondria 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/758 "2018-03-31T01:02:52Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > assuming counterfactually that intelligence is mainly carried on the X chromosome, then boys would have all of this input from their mother But where did their mother get her X chromosomes from? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/759 "2018-03-31T04:56:10Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > Both Sam and Murray claim that the primary scientific points made in _The Bell Curve_ are uncontroversial among qualified researchers. This is an important point, obviously, as it would counter the claims of pseudo-science and “racialism” made in the _Vox_ article. Yes, yes, publishing your findings outside of the peer review system is not a controversial practice: it’s widely considered to be suspect. > [@](#): > > From GOLDBERGER and CHARLES F. MANSKI, JEL, June 1995: > > A serious scientific book should be the culmination of a program of research that has been subjected to external scientific scrutiny, revised appropriately in the light of that scrutiny, and iteratively honed into a well-reasoned and credible final form. In this paradigm, research that purports to be scientific would first be reviewed on its scientific merits. Only if that review is passed successfully would society at large be concerned with the research. > > HM and their publishers have done a disservice by circumventing peer review. The Bell Curve was sprung full blown without external scientific scrutiny, but with beautifully orchestrated initial publicity. A vast stream of reactions in the general media followed immediately… > > Through essays like ours, a process of scientific review is now under way. But, given the process to date, peer review of The Bell Curve is now an exercise in damage control rather than prevention. 2005 thread, \*Has The Bell Curve been completely discredited? \* [Has The Bell Curve been completely discredited? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=333697) ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/760 "2018-03-31T06:25:16Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Meanwhile, descendants of slaves come from a gene pool that started with those who were not clever enough to avoid capture. They then spent hundreds of years in an environment that did not encourage academic aptitude to say the least. Then, after Reconstruction, when the North withdrew occupying troops (a heinous betrayal), the KKK systematically culled, through selective genocide, those blacks who went into politics, law, and education. But you think none of that had an effect? “Meanwhile, descendants of slaves come from a gene pool that started with those who were selected initially as being desirable to sell as slaves. Those who were fit, strong, resilient, determined and adaptable enough not to die in the horrendous conditions they endured across the Middle Passage spent hundreds of years in an environment which actively selected against them through the brutalities of being owned and and enslaved as livestock. Then, after Reconstruction, they had to survive and establish a society and culture through over a hundred years of murderous bullshit from nasty arseholes with sloping foreheads and pointy hoods. But you think none of that had an effect? Frankly, if anyone has a claim to called a fucking Master Race, it’s not the shitheads who jerk off hunched over their crusted copies of _The Bell Curve_ and tell themselves how much cleverer they are.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=39)