# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/761 "2018-03-31T06:44:26Z")
Are you engaging with me or ignoring me? (You have to admit, you walked right into that Einstein deal.) I made no claim about a “master race”. It looks to me like the average black person has many attributes that are superior to those of the average white person. But performance on aptitude tests that white people designed is not one of those things (this is an indisputable fact, the only controversy being the reason). The trials and travails you described would indeed be expected to mold a people into a hardy group of survivors. But there’s no reason to expect they would select for math ability or vocabulary. ETA: You referred to their being owned as livestock. Do you dispute that livestock animals tend to be less intelligent than their wild counterparts? The complexity of the captive life, the amount of decisionmaking involved, is simply not as great. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/762 "2018-03-31T08:43:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s a straw man argument that Klein (and liberals in general) don’t accept that genetics is involved in intelligence. If that’s the “mainstream” you’re referring to, then I don’t dispute it, and neither does Klein. > > What Klein (and I) dispute is that we can reasonably conclude with any certainty that genetics are involved in average test score differences between racial groups. That’s categorically not mainstream in the least. There are numerous reasons for that – that racial groups are not a valid biological grouping; that there’s no way that test scores could tell us anything about gene differences between groups when those groups are treated so overwhelmingly different by society; that there is specific experimental evidence that greater amounts of African ancestry does not correlate to lower test scores; that we know of factual and widely accepted group test-score differentials that are categorically not based on genetics (the Flynn effect); and more. You and Klein are free to dispute that genetics are not involved in test score differences, just as Murray is (or should be) free to dispute that they are. Neither hypothesis is proven and it is likely that neither can be, given the current state of the research. The arguments Murray presents to validate IQ testing and the comparison of racial groupings have been disputed by some and may ultimately turn out not to be correct, but they are still also within the bounds of mainstream science. Or at least they were back in 1994. The muddiest part of the science may be the question of racial groupings, as they are indeed somewhat arbitrary. Racial diversity is clinal, so it is difficult (impossible?) to pick a single bright line where one grouping ends and another begins. Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean that racial diversity doesn’t exist or that _relatively_ distinct populations can’t be defined. Given that, if we all accept that genetics varies in individuals, I see no reason why they wouldn’t similarly vary on average between populations of individuals. I’d expect the genetic differences at the population level to be pretty small in comparison to environmental differences and inter-population variation, though, and thus difficult to tease out. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Klein never called him a sap or bigot, either. As a result of the article, plenty of others have. But I haven’t changed my mind that Sam is too sensitive and too hostile toward Klein. I think Sam has been taking a lot of heat ever since the Murray interview and Klein is the poor target who gets to bear the brunt of all that. It’s a bad look for Sam. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/763 "2018-03-31T09:06:49Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > “Meanwhile, descendants of slaves come from a gene pool that started with those who were selected initially as being desirable to sell as slaves. Those who were fit, strong, resilient, determined and adaptable enough not to die in the horrendous conditions they endured across the Middle Passage spent hundreds of years in an environment which actively selected against them through the brutalities of being owned and and enslaved as livestock. Then, after Reconstruction, they had to survive and establish a society and culture through over a hundred years of murderous bullshit from nasty arseholes with sloping foreheads and pointy hoods. But you think none of that had an effect? Frankly, if anyone has a claim to called a fucking Master Race, it’s not the shitheads who jerk off hunched over their crusted copies of _The Bell Curve_ and tell themselves how much cleverer they are.” I suspect that environmental factors account for more of the cognitive variation than genetic ones. If so, and if the environmental factors and testing errors could be reliably estimated and adjusted for, there is no reason why properly adjusted test scores for some or all populations of African-Americans might not be higher than for some or all white populations. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/764 "2018-03-31T09:42:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > racial characteristics like kinky hair and dark skin You really are just a fucking racist idiot, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/765 "2018-03-31T16:21:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ETA: I predict that within 10 to 20 years, the genetics of intelligence will be so clear that even if people try to avoid directly discussing the racial implications (and I would endorse that avoidance as long as we stop with the “failing schools” accusations) there will be no real disputing it. I predict that the racial implications will be slim to none. Let me put it this way: If we knew all the genes associated with intelligence I think it’s a \*feasible \*scenario that a small group of people, like the much-touted Askenazi jews, could have some measurable advantage after all. E.g. “We have found 8 genes associated with intelligence and Ashkenazi Jews have disproportionately high numbers of 3 of them!” But among “races” as people popularly understand the term – where you’re talking about groups of hundreds of millions of people, with far more diversity within a group than between groups, huge overlaps in performance between groups on just about any attribute you care to measure, and any IQ test gap between groups closing…yeah not so much. It won’t stop people wishing they could treat people with different skin colors as if they were different species of Middle Earth though. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/766 "2018-03-31T16:30:52Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I predict that the racial implications will be slim to none. > > Let me put it this way: > > If we knew all the genes associated with intelligence I think it’s a \*feasible \*scenario that a small group of people, like the much-touted Askenazi jews, could have some measurable advantage after all. E.g. “We have found 8 genes associated with intelligence and Ashkenazi Jews have disproportionately high numbers of 3 of them!” > > But among “races” as people popularly understand the term – where you’re talking about groups of hundreds of millions of people, with far more diversity within a group than between groups, huge overlaps in performance between groups on just about any attribute you care to measure, and any IQ test gap between groups closing…yeah not so much. > > It won’t stop people wishing they could treat people with different skin colors as if they were different species of Middle Earth though. I do think that if we could get representative samples of people from each of the thousands (tens of thousands?) of ethnicities, and gave them some sort of test that actually determined intellectual capacity independent of environmental factors, we would see minor differences between ethnic groups. However, those differences would be much smaller than the differences between random members of the groups, and would not have anything correlated with skin pigment. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/767 "2018-03-31T17:12:38Z")
But notthern Europeans ARE a distinct group. The error is in seeing everyone of sub-Saharan African origin as a distinct group. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/768 "2018-03-31T17:35:54Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But notthern Europeans ARE a distinct group. Huh? Northern Europeans are just one group? > [@](#): > > The error is in seeing everyone of sub-Saharan African origin as a distinct group. That is correct, I can only assume that you just realized that you had been making that error? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/769 "2018-03-31T18:35:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That is correct, I can only assume that you just realized that you had been making that error? No, and I can show you that I understood this all along, from posts early in this thread, if you want proof. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/770 "2018-03-31T19:11:45Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No, and I can show you that I understood this all along, from posts early in this thread, if you want proof. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I don’t think I understand your claim then. I was thinking that you had come to the realization that you cannot just lump in all sub-saharan people as one big group, but I guess you are actually making a different claim? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/771 "2018-03-31T20:24:25Z")
Africa is the birthplace of humanity. The vast majority of the human gene pool still resides there and in the Pan-African diaspora. The peoples native to Asia, Europe, and the Americas are descendants of a small group of intrepid explorers (or perhaps outcasts) who left the mother continent. They became large in absolute numbers of individuals, especially in Asia, but their gene pool is still much smaller than in Africa. So Africans are the central mass population of humanity. My Bayesian prior here is that it is backward to see Caucasians as the norm, and Africans as “below normal” IQ. Rather, Africans are the norm (and much more diverse, presumably containing highly variable subgroups), and Europeans and Asians are satellite offshoots who are particularly easy to identify with the naked eye. They are abnormally high in IQ compared to average humans. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/772 "2018-03-31T21:29:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Africa is the birthplace of humanity. The vast majority of the human gene pool still resides there and in the Pan-African diaspora. The peoples native to Asia, Europe, and the Americas are descendants of a small group of intrepid explorers (or perhaps outcasts) who left the mother continent. They became large in absolute numbers of individuals, especially in Asia, but their gene pool is still much smaller than in Africa. > > So Africans are the central mass population of humanity. My Bayesian prior here is that it is backward to see Caucasians as the norm, and Africans as “below normal” IQ. Rather, Africans are the norm (and much more diverse, presumably containing highly variable subgroups), and Europeans and Asians are satellite offshoots who are particularly easy to identify with the naked eye. They are abnormally high in IQ compared to average humans. Oh, that’s okay then. You aren’t saying that blacks are inferior, you are saying that whites are superior. That’s completely different. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/773 "2018-03-31T21:29:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No, and I can show you that I understood this all along, from posts early in this thread, if you want proof. If you’re providing proof of stuff, provide proof of this: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > maternal IQ being more significant in the heritability of IQ ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/774 "2018-03-31T22:06:52Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Oh, that’s okay then. You aren’t saying that blacks are inferior, you are saying that whites are superior. That’s completely different. :rolleyes: But it is! How is it different from the Ashkenazi Jew example you referenced? And I am saying whites are one subgroup superior, on average, in certain types of intelligence. There are undoubtedly other such subgroups who are sub-Saharan Africans, but they are much smaller in number and geographic range, and because they are Africans with dark brown skin, we make the cultural error of not recognizing them as a distinct group. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > If you’re providing proof of stuff, provide proof of this: > **[Relationship of Child IQ to Parental IQ and Education in Children with Fetal...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114203/)** > > Clinical trial designs need to control for genetic and environmental influences when examining cognitive outcomes in children for whom clinical considerations preclude randomization. However, the contributions of maternal and paternal IQ and... > [@](#): > > Here, we examined the relationship of IQ and education in both parents to child IQ at age 3 years. IQ and education for both parents were statistically correlated to child IQ. However, paternal IQ and education were not significant after accounting for maternal IQ effects. > **[Children inherit their intelligence from their mother](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/children-intelligence-iq-mother-inherit-inheritance-genetics-genes-a7345596.html)** > > Genes for cleverness are carried on the X chromosome and may be deactivated if they come from the father > [@](#): > > A mother’s genetics determines how clever her children are, according to researchers, and the father makes no difference.  > Women are more likely to transmit intelligence genes to their children because they are carried on the X chromosome and women have two of these, while men only have one. > But in addition to this, scientists now believe genes for advanced cognitive functions which are inherited from the father may be automatically deactivated. Satisfied? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/775 "2018-03-31T22:21:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But it is! How is it different from the Ashkenazi Jew example you referenced? > > And I am saying whites are one subgroup superior, on average, in certain types of intelligence. There are undoubtedly other such subgroups who are sub-Saharan Africans, but they are much smaller in number and geographic range, and because they are Africans with dark brown skin, we make the cultural error of not recognizing them as a distinct group. > > [Relationship of Child IQ to Parental IQ and Education in Children with Fetal Antiepileptic Drug Exposure - PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114203/) > [Children inherit their intelligence from their mother not their father, say scientists | The Independent | The Independent](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/children-intelligence-iq-mother-inherit-inheritance-genetics-genes-a7345596.html) > > Satisfied? > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Of course, the key remains that that is about inherited intelligence, something that researchers tell us that it is not related to race for the pedantic reason that there is really none. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/776 "2018-03-31T22:25:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > url][Relationship of Child IQ to Parental IQ and Education in Children with Fetal Antiepileptic Drug Exposure - PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114203/) This is a study of children subject to fetal drug exposure (results of outcomes from disease populations are not applicable to wider groups). Also, it concludes: First, it may be that paternal IQ and education are so closely related to maternal IQ and education that they add no additional predictive value to child cognitive outcome; this possibility is supported at least in part by our analyses… Finally, unlike maternity, absolute confirmation of paternity requires genetic testing. So they actually explain the reason for no predictive power of paternal IQ (did you read the whole thing? Didn’t I tell this to you before?) > [@](#): > > [Children inherit their intelligence from their mother not their father, say scientists | The Independent | The Independent](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/children-intelligence-iq-mother-inherit-inheritance-genetics-genes-a7345596.html) A newspaper article (which happens to get the science wrong. Quelle surprise). > [@](#): > > Satisfied? No. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/777 "2018-03-31T22:28:47Z")
Sorry, I believe sources like those over the insistence of a random anonymous poster with a clear agenda. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/778 "2018-03-31T22:37:55Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Sorry, I believe sources like those over the insistence of a random anonymous poster with a clear agenda. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I have to agree with **Evil Economist** on this one, and not just for the pedantic reason that he was aware of that research, but because you are wrong, it is those sources that are telling you that your point is not as good as you thought it was. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/779 "2018-03-31T22:41:12Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I have to agree with **Evil Economist** on this one, and not just for the pedantic reason that he was aware of that research, but because you are wrong, it is those sources that are telling you that your point is not as good as you thought it was. Mmmhmmm…tell me more, o wise sage. :rolleyes: Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/780 "2018-03-31T22:48:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Mmmhmmm…tell me more, o wise sage. :rolleyes: > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The simple logic is that he just had to notice that you did not read the paper properly. Therefore **Evil Economist** is more reliable than indeed a nobody on the internet that misunderstands research. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=40)