# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/61 "2017-04-24T02:18:38Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Such threads are different \*how, \*exactly, from “[movie name]–seen it” threads? Other than it being much easier to click a link and listen to a podcast than it is to go see a movie in the theatre? :dubious: Well for one thing, people _have already chosen_ to see the movie or _already have_ an interest in it. Here, you’re trying to _generate_ interest in something that no one has any interest in, and then you’re being a fucking asshole about the fact that no one is interested. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/62 "2017-04-24T02:36:57Z")
No, it’s no different from my dismissing the opinion of someone about a movie who talks about how they don’t like the actors or the director or whatever, but is not going to see the movie. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/63 "2017-04-24T02:37:02Z")
The only thing worse than a slack-jawed, fish-brained, drooling racist piece of shit is a fucking _lightweight, know-nothing, wannabe_ slack-jawed fish-brained, drooling racist piece of shit who, having nothing new to contribute (even current bigoted morons aren’t lining up behind Murray any more, which is why he’s so sad), drags out a 20 year old piece of crap and wants to “discuss” it even though s/he apparently can’t say anything intelligible about it him/herself. Instead, s/he wants others to do the work of listening to it (which there’s no evidence the OP has bothered to do), and start the argument again from some time before his/her fellow pieces of shit lost it two decades ago. Sorry: no do-overs for the fish-brains. Even his/her fellow bigots aren’t discussing this tripe any more–why is anyone here giving the OP a thought? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/64 "2017-04-24T02:41:30Z")
I don’t know what “evidence” would satisfy you, but I always listen to every episode of Sam Harris’s podcast in its entirety. When a new episode drops, I drop any other podcast I’m listening to and go straight to Sam. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/65 "2017-04-24T03:13:38Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Here, I’ll make you smarter than Sam Harris on this subject in five paragraphs or less. > > The idea of a black race including humans with widely varying ancestries and ethnicity does not come from the study of biology. It was invented by slavers in America. They wanted to justify treating transatlantic slaves differently from indentured servants from Europe. This imagined “race” of humans was held to be inherently unintelligent, and therefore could rightly be treated differently. > > (rest of post removed) The concept of race and the African slave trade predates the arrival of Europeans to America by centuries. Where are you getting this “alternative facts”? :dubious: FYI, the Arab slave traders that were there a thousand years before people in the Americas thought up of rationalizations for their slave trade referred to Africans as blacks. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/66 "2017-04-24T04:01:35Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Addressed on the podcast, and a perfect illustration of why I am not interested in engaging with anyone who doesn’t listen to it. Well why don’t you summarize? Save us the trouble, _and_ show that you understood the cogent points from what you heard, and actually push the discussion forwards. > [@](#): > > But I will just point out that if race is make-believe, the same must needs be true of rac_ism_. You can’t have it both ways. Never mind. You’re a fucking moron, and this is incredibly stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/67 "2017-04-24T04:28:46Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > The concept of race and the African slave trade predates the arrival of Europeans to America by centuries. > Where are you getting this “alternative facts”? :dubious: > FYI, the Arab slave traders that were there a thousand years before people in the Americas thought up of rationalizations for their slave trade referred to Africans as blacks. Look, it might be true that we can treat “white” as a race. Yeah, it’s true that your average European is more closely related to other Europeans than they are to Africans. But it’s not true that your average African is more closely related to other Africans than they are to Europeans. Africa is more diverse genetically than the entire rest of the world combined, and so if “white” and “asian” are races, then Africa has to contain at least a dozen races, not one. The thing about race and the slave trade is that European slave traders didn’t enslave Africans because they were racist against Africans. That came much later. They enslaved Africans because Africans weren’t Christians. But the problem then comes when your slaves convert to Christianity, what are you supposed to do now, free them? That’s crazy talk! So there has to be some other reason why it’s OK to enslave them, and so racism was invented. Of course Islamic slavery often worked the same way, it was OK for Muslims to enslave Christians and pagans. Yeah, people have noted for thousands of years that people from sub-saharan Africa tend to have dark skin. Good for you for noticing that. But that difference wasn’t significant. We don’t have records of Romans thinking that sub-Saharan Africans were naturally stupid and made good slaves. That explanation was made up in the 1700s, and still continues to be believed by some people even today, and sometimes they write books about it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/68 "2017-04-24T05:05:13Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > The only thing worse than a slack-jawed, fish-brained, drooling racist piece of shit is a fucking _lightweight, know-nothing, wannabe_ slack-jawed fish-brained, drooling racist piece of shit who, having nothing new to contribute (even current bigoted morons aren’t lining up behind Murray any more, which is why he’s so sad), drags out a 20 year old piece of crap and wants to “discuss” it even though s/he apparently can’t say anything intelligible about it him/herself. Instead, s/he wants others to do the work of listening to it (which there’s no evidence the OP has bothered to do), and start the argument again from some time before his/her fellow pieces of shit lost it two decades ago. Sorry: no do-overs for the fish-brains. > > Even his/her fellow bigots aren’t discussing this tripe any more–why is anyone here giving the OP a thought? Hmm. Is that fish brain a function of genetics or the environment? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/69 "2017-04-24T05:08:06Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Look, it might be true that we can treat “white” as a race. Yeah, it’s true that your average European is more closely related to other Europeans than they are to Africans. But it’s not true that your average African is more closely related to other Africans than they are to Europeans. Africa is more diverse genetically than the entire rest of the world combined, and so if “white” and “asian” are races, then Africa has to contain at least a dozen races, not one. Yes, I said much the same upthread. I’m not however seeing the leap _in modern times_ between “group X has a lower average IQ” and “it’s okay to mistreat people or enslave them if they have lower IQs”. If this is remotely how people feel nowadays, why do I not see people hooking those with Downs Syndrome up to rickshaws and whipping them to spur them on faster? My impression is that since the late 20th century, there has been a strong social norm requiring us to be tenderhearted toward those with intellectual deficits, and expending extra resources on their education (fortunately for my family, as my wife is a “SpEd” teacher). Even when skinflint “small government” types get power, programs for the intellectually disabled tend to escape the budget knife (note that the SCOTUS just ruled 9-0, amazingly, that school districts must provide more robust funding for education of kids with autism). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/70 "2017-04-24T05:24:20Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I assume you limited the nominees to 2017 because you don’t want your claim that you called the election (you were for it before you were against it, LOL) from 2016 to be in the running? :dubious: Let’s go to the quarry and throw stuff down there! You respond to my post with an attack! Hilarious! I bet you don’t even see how that proved what I wrote to be accurate (ya know, like how what I wrote on March 2, 2016 was accurate). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/71 "2017-04-24T05:33:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Let’s go to the quarry and throw stuff down there! That is definitely something you like to say. Does anyone know why, or enjoy the non sequitur quirk? Not sure. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I bet you don’t even see how that proved what I wrote to be accurate (ya know, like how what I wrote on March 2, 2016 was accurate). Yes, you predicted in March that Trump would win. Then in, what, September? you announced you had changed your mind, and that he would lose. After the election, you declared that the earlier prediction was the one that counted after all. (Pro tip: this will not work out the way you want it to, if you make the same assumption when drafting multiple versions of your last will and testament.) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/72 "2017-04-24T06:08:07Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Heh. Think I’ll mosey on over to ATMB and suggest we open a forum expressly _for_ OPs that demand participants watch a video, or read a document, without benefit of the Original Poster’s thesis statement. > > (Probably be the only forum where 100% of the threads were moved there by a mod.) > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Such threads are different \*how, \*exactly, from “[movie name]–seen it” threads? Other than it being much easier to click a link and listen to a podcast than it is to go see a movie in the theatre? :dubious: Beats the hell out of me; I can’t recall ever having opened such a thread. I never got the feeling from the titles of such threads that they amounted to an attempt to give us an assignment (regardless of how easy or difficult such an assignment might be to complete). :dubious:[sup]2[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/73 "2017-04-24T06:33:23Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It looks like there’s already a forum dedicated to discussing the actual content of that and other podcasts. Here, we like to discuss the contents of OPs. If those discussions evolve into discussions of particular podcasts, well, that’s fine. But we really need to start with discussing the content of your OP. > > Be really cool if you could provide some. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Great, please link me. I don’t have the technical chops to make a link to another forum when I’m on my tablet, sorry. BUT, if you go to site _you_ linked to in your OP, it shouldn’t be too hard to find the tab labeled “forums.” I trust you can find your way from there. > [@](#): > > BTW, I note that you apparently have no answer for how it differs from starting a thread about a movie. To be candid, I had not read your riposte until about twenty minutes ago. I have now responded to it. > [@](#): > > I also note the absurdity of kaysplaining the board to someone who has been here more than 14 years and 6,000 posts (which doesn’t include my days on the AOL SDMB, or at AFCA, starting in the 1990s). :rolleyes: If you think _that’s_ absurd, shall we talk about how ridiculous it is that your behavior inspired me to think it advisable? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/74 "2017-04-24T06:39:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Hmm. Is that fish brain a function of genetics or the environment? A topic of fierce debate since Professor Lovecraft delivered his monograph from Innsmouth… ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/75 "2017-04-24T07:13:14Z")
I’m glad Sam Harris has made things simpler for me. Up to now, I’ve had friends link comments by him and I’ve had to explain that he’s one of those scientists who goes way out of his area of expertise and takes strong opinions about things he has no understanding of\*. And that often those opinions are of the racist flavor. Now I can just mention this “discussion” and we’re done. - BTW, I would _not_ put Dawkins in this category, as some upthread have done. When Dawkins goes outside his field, he at least _tries_ to research those areas, and then he does stress that he’s no expert. In the UK, the Dawkins-as-jerk meme basically doesn’t exist as you can be more openly critical of religion there, and he’s had very respectful debates with religious leaders. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/76 "2017-04-24T10:10:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes, I said much the same upthread. > > I’m not however seeing the leap _in modern times_ between “group X has a lower average IQ” and “it’s okay to mistreat people or enslave them if they have lower IQs”. If this is remotely how people feel nowadays, why do I not see people hooking those with Downs Syndrome up to rickshaws and whipping them to spur them on faster? My impression is that since the late 20th century, there has been a strong social norm requiring us to be tenderhearted toward those with intellectual deficits, and expending extra resources on their education (fortunately for my family, as my wife is a “SpEd” teacher). Even when skinflint “small government” types get power, programs for the intellectually disabled tend to escape the budget knife (note that the SCOTUS just ruled 9-0, amazingly, that school districts must provide more robust funding for education of kids with autism). One only has to look at the main proponents of this hypothesis, and what they advocate – most people who advocate for this idea, that black people are inherently intellectually inferior, are white nationalists/supremacists. What online forum has the most discussion about the topic, and most agreement that it’s true? Stormfront. What subreddits? Banned ones like r/coontown and r/altright. No different, broadly, then the slavery-justifiers and segregationists of past decades and centuries. We don’t have to hypothesize what America would be like if most people accepted this idea – we know what would happen, since it was the case for most of American history. Humans don’t generally treat other groups well if they think they’re inferior. And aside from the monstrosities that occur from acceptance of the idea, it’s just _bad science_. We don’t know the genes for high and low intelligence, much less their prevalence in various groups. Asserting that outcomes now just so happen to reflect some genetic hierarchy of intelligence, when outcomes have been all over the map through human history, is just ridiculous. There’s nothing special about now. I’ll note, **SlackerInc** , that you didn’t respond to my long post #59. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/77 "2017-04-24T10:52:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And aside from the monstrosities that occur from acceptance of the idea, it’s just _bad science_. We don’t know the genes for high and low intelligence, much less their prevalence in various groups. Asserting that outcomes now just so happen to reflect some genetic hierarchy of intelligence, when outcomes have been all over the map through human history, is just ridiculous. There’s nothing special about now. Yes, as I’ve said on the Dope before, knowing what genes are responsible for intelligence? That’s useful. Studying some small population that for some reason has a high IQ? Potentially useful, because it might help us find the genes. But making broad brush statements about “races”? Notsomuch. You’re talking graphs with a _huge_ amount of variance within a group, and potentially, maybe, a tiny difference on average. And yet you have so many guys rattling on about how we MUST study this. Why? It’s because they want to indulge their urge to generalize. They want to think “I must be smarter than that guy, because he’s black”. And treat humans (who are so alike scientists think our species must have had a population bottleneck) like different species. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/78 "2017-04-24T10:53:25Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > The concept of race and the African slave trade predates the arrival of Europeans to America by centuries. . There’s a falsehood and a false and telling assumption here. The falsehood is that race predates American slavery. That’s incorrect. The word existed, but it meant something like nation or language speakers. It didn’t refer to continental origin. The idea of 3 or 4 races was distinctly eighteenth century. The telling assumption is that you think the idea of a black race must have coincided with black slavery. The reality is that slavers didn’t have to invent racism until the rights of white indentured servants became a problem, which post-dated transatlantic slavery by a century or so. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/79 "2017-04-24T11:13:01Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Then “whiteness” and “white privilege” cannot be real. I’m someone who argues against the glibness of the term “white privilege”, but if someone is biased against you because of _perceived_ characteristics, the bias is real even if the characteristics are not. I just don’t call this relative lack of bias “privilege” because racism doesn’t benefit anyone. Even white people would be better if it didn’t exist, so it’s a dubious “privilege” to be hurt even if it is less than anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/80 "2017-04-24T11:59:43Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Then “whiteness” and “white privilege” cannot be real. [This kitty has some advice for you](http://lolheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2372.jpg). The fact that a biological category does not exist does not mean that a social category doesn’t exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=5)