# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/821 "2018-04-01T18:41:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Where you are coming from? Your tactic, which is far from uncommon, is to attack a poster or the motives of a poster. Ironic thing is, your point of view is more akin to moon hoaxers, holocaust deniers, and creationists than those who you attack. > > You have no idea what my motives are. So attacking what you assume to be my motives accomplishes what exactly? My Irony meter must be on the fritz… It’s going ape shit right now. So is my bullshit meter, but I think that Slacker’s responsible for that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/822 "2018-04-01T19:00:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Where you are coming from? Your tactic, which is far from uncommon, is to attack a poster or the motives of a poster. Ironic thing is, your point of view is more akin to moon hoaxers, holocaust deniers, and creationists than those who you attack. Nope, it is clear that you missed post #789 and #792 and others before, I do not get into attacking a poster until it is clear that they are not really as pure as they claim and ignore evidence already posted about how much they ignore and the underhanded ways of Murray and their ilk. In reality you and others fall for the [equivalence fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence). What PHD students in prestigious universities are usually learning in universities is indeed a demonstration of how serious Murray and others are taken in academia where it counts. Indeed, not taken much seriously. > [@octopus](#): > > You have no idea what my motives are. So attacking what you assume to be my motives accomplishes what exactly? [Like if me and others have not seen your sad equivalence fallacy act before](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=798126&page=3) and [your trolling](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20592991&postcount=4313). You sad [shithead](https://imgur.com/gallery/SqPSk). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/823 "2018-04-01T19:08:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Your tactic, which is far from uncommon, is to attack a poster or the motives of a poster. BWAHAHAHAHA > [@Morgenstern](#): > > My Irony meter must be on the fritz… It’s going ape shit right now. Dude, do NOT use your irony meter on the Internet! That voids the warranty! It’s like using your candy thermometer in an active volcano. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/824 "2018-04-01T19:12:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, great job ignoring the Scarr study, the Flynn effect, Murray’s very obviously racist statements about black contributions to culture, and the ridiculousness of believing that test scores can tell us anything about genetics in such a profoundly unequal society. I told you I would dig up my previous responses on those questions after the holiday, and you told me not to bother because YOU were the one doing the ignoring, of a purposeful kind. Which is it? You can’t have it both ways. :dubious; > [@octopus](#): > > No, my reading comprehension impaired friend, that was not the main point. The main point is intellectual dishonesty to maintain a political orthodoxy is not always the best strategy to control a narrative as scientific tools advance. The Catholic Church learned that lesson. I do endorse this post. Whatever octopus may have said on other threads, I don’t know; but this is perspicacious and on point. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Does “genes” equal “race” to many people? I could casually buy that intelligence has a large genetic element that has no correlation with the genes for skin and hair colour and other minor physical traits, which seem to be the criteria for “race” sorting. As Steven Pinker says, “races” are just large extended families. If IQ has a large genetic component (and it clearly does), it would be a miracle for each of these extended families to have the same amount of collective genetic potential for high IQ. Which is what Sam has pointed out many times, including on this podcast. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > My Irony meter must be on the fritz… Fair. Octopus did attack motives, as have I. I don’t actually see a problem with doing so. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/825 "2018-04-01T19:23:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I disagree that 80% is virtually monocausal. But you can’t just take a statement of “50-80%” and ignore the range. If you want to characterize it as a static number, it would be more intellectually honest to call it 65%. But Slacker. I calculated an upper bound, _the highest possible figure_ and I came way short of the top of their range. I used _twin_ data. A better mean estimate for the effects of heredity _in families_ would have used the sibling data. That would have put me at .47^2 = 22%. Lower if we’re discussing clans, never mind groups of humans. His estimate is wildly off. ## Look, maybe my scratchpad efforts are misguided in some way. But his statement just smells bad. It’s almost like having a 1 hour discussion about black white IQ differentials, without mentioning slavery and blithely assuming in the face of overwhelming evidence that all discrimination ended in 1970. But nobody could be that dumb or bigoted! In other news, Brad DeLong senses a disturbance in [del]the Force[/del] his twitter feed. [http://www.bradford-delong.com/2018/03/the-lets-be-agnostic-about-race-science-clowns-are-in-my-twitter-timeline-again.html](http://www.bradford-delong.com/2018/03/the-lets-be-agnostic-about-race-science-clowns-are-in-my-twitter-timeline-again.html) [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT] **The “Let’s Be Agnostic About Race Science” Clowns Are in My Twitter Timeline Again…** **Over on Twitter:** 1500 generations since radiation from the Horn of Africa is not very many, _n’est-ce pas_? A genetic difference that gives you a—huge—extra 0.1% chance of surviving to reproduce will take a gene’s frequency from 1% to 5% of the population in that time. Melanin and vitamin D, lactose tolerance and herding, sickle cell and malaria—all things with an order-of-magnitude bigger than 0.1% differential? Certainly yes. Other things like “general intelligence”? Almost certainly no. I don’t see how you can do the math and still claim otherwise. And so I don’t see how those who claim otherwise—or even claim “agnosticism” about whether it is likely that there are “important” differences between “races”—have done the arithmetic. Can’t do the arithmetic? Haven’t done the arithmetic? Reject the arithmetic because they want to justify some form of racial privilege? I don’t really care. As @ezraklein just wrote: “[such] race science… is not ‘forbidden knowledge’… [but rather] America’s most ancient justification for bigotry and racial inequality…” As Charles Manski wrote back in 2011: “Decompos[ing] cross-sectional variation in observed outcomes into unobservable genetic and environmental components”, no. “Measur[ing] specific genes and us[ing] them as observed covariates when predicting outcomes”, quite possibly. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] Emphasis in original post by DeLong. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/826 "2018-04-01T19:24:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > As Steven Pinker says, “races” are just large extended families. Okay, how many extended families do you think there are? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/827 "2018-04-01T19:25:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, it is clear that you missed post #789 and #792 and others before, I do not get into attacking a poster until it is clear that they are not really as pure as they claim and ignore evidence already posted about how much they ignore and the underhanded ways of Murray and their ilk. In reality you and others fall for the [equivalence fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence). What PHD students in prestigious universities are usually learning in universities is indeed a demonstration of how serious Murray and others are taken in academia where it counts. Indeed, not taken much seriously. > [Like if me and others have not seen your sad equivalence fallacy act before](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=798126&page=3) and [your trolling](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20592991&postcount=4313). You sad [shithead](https://imgur.com/gallery/SqPSk). 🙂 Nice links. But if appeal to authority is a fallacy, appeal to the retarded must be as well. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/828 "2018-04-01T19:56:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Okay, how many extended families do you think there are? I have no idea. And it’s not really an answerable question any more than we can count how many tiers of ability there are within the universe of those who play tennis. That doesn’t mean there’s no significant difference between me and Roger Federer. But as I keep saying, counting all sub-Saharan African black people as a single race strikes me as a clear category error. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > In other news, Brad DeLong senses a disturbance in [del]the Force[/del] his twitter feed. [http://www.bradford-delong.com/2018/03/the-lets-be-agnostic-about-race-science-clowns-are-in-my-twitter-timeline-again.html](http://www.bradford-delong.com/2018/03/the-lets-be-agnostic-about-race-science-clowns-are-in-my-twitter-timeline-again.html) [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT] **The “Let’s Be Agnostic About Race Science” Clowns Are in My Twitter Timeline Again…** > > **Over on Twitter:** 1500 generations since radiation from the Horn of Africa is not very many, _n’est-ce pas_? A genetic difference that gives you a—huge—extra 0.1% chance of surviving to reproduce will take a gene’s frequency from 1% to 5% of the population in that time. > > Melanin and vitamin D, lactose tolerance and herding, sickle cell and malaria—all things with an order-of-magnitude bigger than 0.1% differential? Certainly yes. Other things like “general intelligence”? Almost certainly no. I’m at a loss to understand why he thinks all of those things make such a greater difference in survival than does intelligence when pushing out into a new frontier with unknown plants and animals and a generally hostile climate. But arguing over that is ultimately fruitless and I think unnecessary. As I did respond to him on Twitter: > [@](#): > > Aren’t you neglecting what strikes me as an obvious possibility: that the people who left Africa were a self-selected group that already possessed higher than average IQ before they left, before they became “white” or “Asian”? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/829 "2018-04-01T19:56:30Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > As Steven Pinker says, “races” are just large extended families. If IQ has a large genetic component (and it clearly does), it would be a miracle for each of these extended families to have the same amount of collective genetic potential for high IQ. Which is what Sam has pointed out many times, including on this podcast. I profoundly doubt Steven Pinker said this. Pinker may be many things, but an idiot about how populations work isn’t among them. It’s far likelier that this is yet another example of your not understanding what the hell you’ve read. IOW: Cite? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/830 "2018-04-01T20:02:28Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I told you I would dig up my previous responses on those questions after the holiday, and you told me not to bother because YOU were the one doing the ignoring, of a purposeful kind. Which is it? You can’t have it both ways. :dubious You’re right; there’s no point in engaging with racists who are content with being racist and unwilling to examine their own biases. Carry on without me. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/831 "2018-04-01T20:27:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I profoundly doubt Steven Pinker said this. Pinker may be many things, but an idiot about how populations work isn’t among them. It’s far likelier that this is yet another example of your not understanding what the hell you’ve read. > > IOW: Cite? Maybe one day you’ll learn not to doubt me, if only to avoid publicly being shown up by someone you are so invested in painting as a dunce. > Cited. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/832 "2018-04-01T20:33:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re right Finally, you concede the truth. Better late than never! 😉 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/833 "2018-04-01T20:51:03Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have no idea. And it’s not really an answerable question any more than we can count how many tiers of ability there are within the universe of those who play tennis. Then how can you discuss it with anything approaching scientific rigor? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/834 "2018-04-01T20:59:33Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Finally, you concede the truth. Better late than never! 😉 > > … See there, you had to cheat to win that one. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/835 "2018-04-01T21:52:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Then how can you discuss it with anything approaching scientific rigor? There are lots of things we study that don’t have clear boundaries. We study obesity without being able to say there is some point at which a microgram more makes someone in the obese category and can be contrasted with someone who weighs a microgram less. My dad’s best friend is a gerontologist. I’m not sure what age cutoff they use, but let’s say it’s 55. Does a 55 year old really have more in common with an 85 year old than with a 54 year old? My youngest two kids have autism, which as we all know is on a “spectrum”. There have to be borderline cases where depending on the day and the clinician, a person might be judged “neurotypical” or “on the spectrum”. And on and on and on. Even speciation is not a precise thing. Think about it: if you go back and study the lineages of two critters (say chimps and bonobos) who branched off from each other relatively recently in evolutionary terms, there is not going to be one single generation where you can definitively say “these two cousins belong to separate species, even though their parents were the same species”. I’m not even sure the things we study that have precise boundaries are more numerous than those which don’t! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/836 "2018-04-01T22:01:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > There are lots of things we study that don’t have clear boundaries. So could there be one extended family with dark skin that is more intelligent on average than another extended family with dark skin? Even more so then several extended families with lighter skin? Are there people who belong to multiple extended families? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/837 "2018-04-01T22:04:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Then how can you discuss it with anything approaching scientific rigor? When it’s difficult to determine what a planet is demanding precise sets for organisms before discussing properties seems unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/838 "2018-04-01T22:10:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > When it’s difficult to determine what a planet is demanding precise sets for organisms before discussing properties seems unreasonable. Well, even accepting that it’s an arbitrary process, could the definition for “race” be made as specific as the one for “planet”? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/839 "2018-04-01T22:30:51Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So could there be one extended family with dark skin that is more intelligent on average than another extended family with dark skin? Even more so then several extended families with lighter skin? > > Are there people who belong to multiple extended families? Sure, I don’t see why not. Yes, absolutely. Yes. I’ve said over and over that for me at least, this is not about some insistence that dark skin and high IQ are inherently mutually exclusive. And since sub-Saharan Africans with dark skin are so much more genetically diverse than are whites or East Asians, I don’t think they are comparable as a single group. It’s highly plausible to me that there are populations within that larger group that have just as much IQ advantage as whites or Asians, maybe more so. They just didn’t expand out over a whole continent and become extremely numerous while developing outward characteristics that make them stand out in a crowd. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/840 "2018-04-01T22:44:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Nice links. But if appeal to authority is a fallacy, appeal to the retarded must be as well. Swing and a miss… and was eight strikes 🙂 The posts you willfully missed are not strangers to experts on their field, and please continue governor on disparaging a science advisor on the SDMB and many other posters that are respected. Of course seeing Slakerinc just approving of what the mollusk posted just shows that he is just oblivious about who he should walk with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=43)