# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/881 "2018-04-02T20:17:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > GIGO, once again your fractured prose is hard to parse. Can you please confirm if you are ESL? If so, you are actually doing pretty well. If not… Or maybe, just maybe, you’re an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/882 "2018-04-02T20:32:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That only works if the “joke” isn’t obviously self-serving. GMAFB, it’s called teasing. It’s not self-serving when it’s plain to everyone that it’s not true. And it was a joke, not a “joke”. :rolleyes: > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Huh. So, your impression is based on nothing specific at all, then? It was based on specifics at the time; now I no longer remember specifics, but I do remember the impression. Isn’t that how memory generally works? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/883 "2018-04-02T20:33:54Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I thought the wink made it abundantly clear I was joking. > > It’s been so many years since I read GG&T, I cannot offer specifics. It was just the impression I got: that this was the whole reason he wrote the book. > > GIGO, once again your fractured prose is hard to parse. Can you please confirm if you are ESL? If so, you are actually doing pretty well. If not… > > Anyway, it is not “only one fact”. A variety of tests over many years constitutes many facts. Then there’s the fact that other minority groups are more quickly closing the gap, or (in the case of Asians) surpassing whites. > > And of course there’s that U of Chicago/Harvard family intervention described in the Freakonomics podcast, that worked like gangbusters with white and Hispanic kids, but didn’t do jackshit for black kids—meaning that although it was hoped that it would help close the black-white test gap, it actually increased it! > > Want more? What about the $200 million philanthropic project to improve Newark schools? > > [https://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2015/0922/Newark-s-200-million-education-experiment-Who-are-the-winners](https://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2015/0922/Newark-s-200-million-education-experiment-Who-are-the-winners) > It is your side that is allergic to plain evidence, because you don’t like the implications. Which is understandable! Again, if “reformers” would stop attacking schools on this basis, I would be happy to stop even administering standardized tests to inner city students. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Not testing a specific subset to advance an ideological agenda is wrong and would actually be as counterproductive as affirmative action. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/884 "2018-04-02T20:36:28Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > my “weird ethnic beliefs” revolve around pride in my NORTHERN European heritage. > [@Black Panther movie](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie/809075/300): > > I _am_ from Africa. 😛 > [@Black Panther movie](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie/809075/305): > > It’s amusing to imagine my very secular, Marxist parents (from NYC and Denver) as missionaries from Ohio. I would cop to being a “thoroughgoing American” in most respects Used to be a time when trolls would at least try to be vaguely consistent in their backgrounds, but never mind. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/885 "2018-04-02T20:47:38Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It was based on specifics at the time; now I no longer remember specifics, but I do remember the impression. Isn’t that how memory generally works? Well, for you, clearly. Wait, I shouldn’t say “clearly” when talking about your shitty memory, it might be triggering… ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/886 "2018-04-02T21:01:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Not testing a specific subset to advance an ideological agenda is wrong and would actually be as counterproductive as affirmative action. See, everyone? Ock and I do disagree. Why do you think it would be as counterproductive as affirmative action? > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Used to be a time when trolls would at least try to be vaguely consistent in their backgrounds, but never mind. That’s funny that you don’t understand how those things all fit together, unless you are being disingenuous. As I explained in the very same thread, my parents are blue-eyed Americans who were graduate students in anthropology and sociology when they met in Kenya and got married there. They later went back to do more research, had me, and brought me back to the States when I was still an infant. 15 years later, I spent half my sophomore year of high school in Nairobi, during which time I also visited Mombasa (on what LHOD cheekily called a “choo choo train”), and climbed Mt. Kenya. This is all stuff I have explained before. Which doesn’t mean you are required to keep track of it all—but I have in fact been consistent. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/887 "2018-04-02T21:17:48Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > See, everyone? Ock and I do disagree. > > Why do you think it would be as counterproductive as affirmative action? > > That’s funny that you don’t understand how those things all fit together, unless you are being disingenuous. As I explained in the very same thread, my parents are blue-eyed Americans who were graduate students in anthropology and sociology when they met in Kenya and got married there. They later went back to do more research, had me, and brought me back to the States when I was still an infant. 15 years later, I spent half my sophomore year of high school in Nairobi, during which time I also visited Mombasa (on what LHOD cheekily called a “choo choo train”), and climbed Mt. Kenya. > > This is all stuff I have explained before. Which doesn’t mean you are required to keep track of it all—but I have in fact been consistent. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Yes, you’ve been consistent alright. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/888 "2018-04-02T21:27:26Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > See, everyone? Ock and I do disagree. > > Why do you think it would be as counterproductive as affirmative action? Because why would that potential information be suppressed? It’s to protect the feelings of a subset that aren’t testing well or would it be to hide the information that a subset is not testing well? Either way, by not testing, those who think about such matters are going to assume the actual performance is worse. Therefore it exacerbates the problem. The solution to statistical differences between differing groups isn’t hiding date. The solution is to promote positive values within society. Values such as intrinsic value of human and other intelligent life, equal treatment, mutual respect regardless of differences, etc. Promoting fiction for ideology only works for so long and ruins the credibility of those promoting that fiction. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/889 "2018-04-02T21:55:05Z")
I agree about fiction. But a blank page is not fiction. We don’t have to call attention to unflattering realities if neglecting to does no harm. This is why singles bars don’t use bright, direct lighting. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/890 "2018-04-02T21:57:56Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > GIGO, once again your fractured prose is hard to parse. Can you please confirm if you are ESL? If so, you are actually doing pretty well. If not… I have also mentioned many times before that I’m ESL, better check your memory genes… > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Anyway, it is not “only one fact”. A variety of tests over many years constitutes many facts. Then there’s the fact that other minority groups are more quickly closing the gap, or (in the case of Asians) surpassing whites. > > And of course there’s that U of Chicago/Harvard family intervention described in the Freakonomics podcast, that worked like gangbusters with white and Hispanic kids, but didn’t do jackshit for black kids—meaning that although it was hoped that it would help close the black-white test gap, it actually increased it! Yep, faulty memory genes indeed… Or it is your cognitive level? 😛 Read again, or is that is hopeless now? :), you will see that I pointed out that there were a lot of items that the Chicago intervention missed, specially for the black students. BTW the point you made was about Hispanic students and so I pointed at the Chicago school to show to others (not you anyhow, you are showing all that you are hopeless) that you where wrong at thinking that Hispanic students could not show any more improvement. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Want more? What about the $200 million philanthropic project to improve Newark schools? > > [https://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2015/0922/Newark-s-200-million-education-experiment-Who-are-the-winners](https://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2015/0922/Newark-s-200-million-education-experiment-Who-are-the-winners) > > It is your side that is allergic to plain evidence, because you don’t like the implications. Which is understandable! Again, if “reformers” would stop attacking schools on this basis, I would be happy to stop even administering standardized tests to inner city students. Oh well, more evidence about your faulty genes then. 😃 **As others noted you are hopeless when looking for cites to support your sorry ideas** , in this case you completely ignore that I pointed also at supporting and stabilizing the parents of the black students and other minorities in need; **that was missing there**. Indeed the reforms you are pointing out do not mention that key item as well as those reformers intervening to make a better environment (as in healthy too, with less lead and other contamination). In the end it is indeed another example of a misguided reform effort, just as I pointed out before; but clearly you just do not have the chops to understand. Neither the Shithead Mollusk too as I see… ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/891 "2018-04-02T22:10:44Z")
So none of the highly credentialed experts know how to help black families (despite being able to help similar Hispanic families), but you kibitzers feel comfortable saying the schools have “failed”? How can they fall if no one knows how to succeed? Or maybe you know better than the experts, if only they would put that $200 million in your hands—is that it? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/892 "2018-04-02T22:34:45Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > GMAFB, it’s called teasing. It is? Cite? > [@](#): > > It’s not self-serving when it’s plain to everyone that it’s not true. You other opinions suggest that you think it is indeed true. Are you claiming to believe it is _not_ true? If so, how do you reconcile Diamond’s geography-based theories with racial-based theories? > [@](#): > > It was based on specifics at the time; now I no longer remember specifics, but I do remember the impression. Isn’t that how memory generally works? So it _is_ true that you have an impression of panic on Diamond’s part? Your position is unclear. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/893 "2018-04-02T22:38:48Z")
Are you being serious? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/894 "2018-04-02T23:00:38Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Are you being serious? It is 100% true that your position and its rational underpinnings, if any, is unclear to me. The “panicked” comment about _GG&S_ was simply baffling on its face. Do you have that impression or not? Do you have any specific reason that you can name why you have that impression, or not? Do you have similar impressions about other responses to _The Bell Curve_ (if _GG&S_ can be said to be such a response), on similarly vague grounds? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/895 "2018-04-02T23:14:51Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So none of the highly credentialed experts know how to help black families (despite being able to help similar Hispanic families), but you kibitzers feel comfortable saying the schools have “failed”? How can they fall if no one knows how to succeed? Weren’t you just told about a successful intervention? I’m pretty sure you read the post–you responded to it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/896 "2018-04-02T23:22:14Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So none of the highly credentialed experts know how to help black families (despite being able to help similar Hispanic families), but you kibitzers feel comfortable saying the schools have “failed”? As the hopelessness piles up… That was not my point you Iron Giant size straw man. There may be an element from the schools but in many areas I do not see that it is the schools who are failing. **Of course the fact here is that the main reason for the reform in your latest cite had to do with reported corruption in the school are those reformers intervening.** Are you then in favor of corrupt schools? > [@SlackerInc](#): > > How can they fall if no one knows how to succeed? Or maybe you know better than the experts, if only they would put that $200 million in your hands—is that it? Yep, you are certifiably hopeless. 😛 The cites I made shows that besides giving resources and hope to black students, helping the families properly was one of the important reasons minority students did go over the expectations of silly guys like you with bad genes for memory and cognition :). Of course that means that the proper solution is not cheap, but I do see it as the 40 acres and a mule that many ancestors of the black students (and here I add the poor and other minorities) were promised a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/897 "2018-04-02T23:35:04Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Weren’t you just told about a successful intervention? I’m pretty sure you read the post–you responded to it. It is worse when one notices that **SlackerInc** himself pointed to a successful intervention for the Hispanics, the point I made is that while it helped the Hispanics, I do think that better results would be expected (not just for the Hispanics) if other items that were not applied on that Chicago intervention had been made. No easy pickings then for the flim flam followers when they pick examples that in reality strengthen the points that others made against them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/898 "2018-04-02T23:42:48Z")
Several corrections to an early reply of mine to the Slacker: "As the hopelessness piles up for SlackerInc… That was not my point you Iron Giant size straw man. There may be an element of failure from some schools but in many areas I do not see that the schools are the ones that are failing. **Of course the fact here is that the main reason for the reform in your latest cite had to do with reported corruption in the schools where those reformers are intervening.** Are you then in favor of corrupt schools?" ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/899 "2018-04-03T01:39:07Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That last bit is really an all-out well-poisoning strawman that stinks to high heaven. Well there is a degree of making fun of your position, sure. But there’s a question in there too. Because essentially your hypothesis right now is that the people who left Africa belong to a smart lineage, even though some populations aren’t (considered) smart because reasons. And the people who stayed in Africa are the dumber populations except the ones which happen to be smart because reasons. > [@](#): > > Your previous question is reasonable, though. Yes, I am always ready to discard a belief in the face of new and better evidence, as I did with global free trade and a “race to the bottom”. Glad to hear it. It seems an easily-refutable position, despite deliberately making no testable predictions. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/900 "2018-04-03T03:07:08Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well there is a degree of making fun of your position, sure. But there’s a question in there too. > > Because essentially your hypothesis right now is that the people who left Africa belong to a smart lineage, even though some populations aren’t (considered) smart because reasons. > And the people who stayed in Africa are the dumber populations except the ones which happen to be smart because reasons. > > Glad to hear it. It seems an easily-refutable position, despite deliberately making no testable predictions. What’s the point of sexual reproduction if every sub-set of organisms has the exact same distribution of traits? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=46)