# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/961 "2018-04-04T01:06:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yep, octopus was indeed going for the straw man argument, IOW just lying about what we are talking about. Octopus is hopelessly confusing heritability with genetic determination. > And that was a great post **Kimstu**. You are a very dishonest poster. Not once have I claimed genetics determines everything. I have always said genetics plays a role in the development of every portion of an organism. I’d love to see any of you intellectually dishonest people explain how a biological organism can generate a brain or a liver or a toe without genes playing a part. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/962 "2018-04-04T01:18:24Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You are a very dishonest poster. Y’all should listen to him. He knows whereof he speaks. . ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/963 "2018-04-04T01:34:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You do understand that IQ scores are significantly higher among whites and Asians than among others You understand that IQ scores often go hand in hand with how wealthy or developed a country is: the Flynn effect is strongly seen in countries that have recently seen rapid economic growth. So on talking about “asian” test scores, for example, you have to be more specific: if we’re talking developing countries or failed states then no, their IQ scores aren’t significantly higher than “others”, but they may be once their economies grow. > [@](#): > > and that thanks to their recessive traits, they are likely to have parents who have little to no ancestry that is not white (or Asian)? What? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/964 "2018-04-04T01:36:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Now you seem to be blatantly confusing scientific analysis with social work. You do recognize that actual children dealing with behavioral issues aren’t lab rats that we can run controlled experiments on, right? When it comes to helping real live kids with policy decisions, we don’t have the luxury of going through rigorous empirical testing before we choose an approach. We have to try to work out what will be most beneficial based on common sense and compassion. You can actually do empirical research on these questions, by doing pilot programs and matching them with controls. But even if you don’t, because you think it takes too long or whatever, these people are pushing these changes in school policies based on what they claim is hard research data, not “common sense and compassion”. (It’s not my common sense, BTW, that failing to suspend teenagers for serious acts of violence, vandalism, etc., does them or their classmates any favors over the long run.) > [@Kimstu](#): > > After all, even you acknowledge that we ought to be just dealing with individual kids’ learning needs as individuals without trying to force racial-group templates on them, right? Yes, even I. (You do realize that I genuinely believe myself to be operating from a place of fairness and compassion, right?) You and everyone else seem to have avoided my “what if you’re the baddies” question. What if it’s not the fault of teachers and administrators that test scores in so-called “failing schools” don’t rise? Do you think that school profiled in Mother Jones should be punished or closed down? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/965 "2018-04-04T02:29:26Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You and everyone else seem to have avoided my “what if you’re the baddies” question. What if it’s not the fault of teachers and administrators that test scores in so-called “failing schools” don’t rise? Do you think that school profiled in Mother Jones should be punished or closed down? Oh, your “we are the baddies” tripe\* still. Nope, I did, but thanks for showing all what a coward and a poisoner of discussions you are. \*Really, that sketch from comedian David Mitchell makes clear who the baddies are, the Nazis, and indeed the implication there can not be left with no comment. That was just about what I have seen many scientific racists _project_ to the ones that oppose to them. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/966 "2018-04-04T03:29:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’d love to see any of you intellectually dishonest people explain how a biological organism can generate a brain or a liver or a toe without genes playing a part. And if anybody had claimed that in this thread, I would love to see it too. Point is, though, behaviour isn’t an organ. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/967 "2018-04-04T03:35:39Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > And if anybody had claimed that in this thread, I would love to see it too. Point is, though, behaviour isn’t an organ. Where does behavior come from? Some magical or divine spirit? Or is it governed by a physical organ which itself follows physical law? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/968 "2018-04-04T05:00:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Where does behavior come from? Some magical or divine spirit? Or is it governed by a physical organ which itself follows physical law? The point is in humans our behaviour is largely learned, not in our genes. And anyone with recent european descent should definitely emphasize that aspect, because otherwise, based on our history, we’re sick, sadistic monsters. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/969 "2018-04-04T05:53:18Z")
Good point, Mijin. Although I would hasten to point out that we are also the people who have done the most to advance the philosophical and legal structures behind civil liberties and human rights. We contain multitudes. Sam has a podcast out now that is just him alone talking about the controversy and what he plans to do moving forward: [https://samharris.org/podcasts/title-122-extreme-housekeeping-edition/](https://samharris.org/podcasts/title-122-extreme-housekeeping-edition/) Meanwhile, Steven Pinker and Andrew Sullivan have rallied to Sam’s defense. Pinker: > > [@](#): > > Sam Harris is among our farthest-ranging, deepest-probing, and most straight & open public intellectuals, engaging sincerely with ideas & people whether he agrees with them or not. Sullivan: > **[Denying Genetics Isn’t Shutting Down Racism, It’s Fueling It](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/03/denying-genetics-isnt-shutting-down-racism-its-fueling-it.html)** > > Suppressing scientific findings on group differences among human beings is both intellectually dishonest and politically counterproductive. > [@](#): > > I want to note first that I know many of the figures involved in this heated debate — most recently, Charles Murray, Sam Harris, and Ezra Klein — and respect each of them a great deal. None has a racist agenda. Each has a penetrating mind. Each of them makes important points. And this is a complicated debate. I stumbled onto this question decades ago, had no previous interest in it, but have been fascinated by its twists and turns over the years. My own brilliant conclusion: Group differences in IQ are indeed explicable through both environmental and genetic factors and we don’t yet know quite what the balance is. And of course there is the response to the Vox piece that Klein refused to run, written by Richard Haier, the editor of the scholarly journal Intelligence: > **[No Voice at VOX: Sense and Nonsense about Discussing IQ and Race](https://quillette.com/2017/06/11/no-voice-vox-sense-nonsense-discussing-iq-race/)** > > We know that genes are not necessarily deterministic. They are probabilistic and we are learning how to change genes and their functional expression. > [@](#): > > Sam Harris is not an expert in intelligence research but I am. After hearing the podcast, I emailed congratulations to him and Murray for conducting an informative discussion of complex and controversial issues. Every point they enumerated as having broad support among intelligence researchers is correct. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/970 "2018-04-04T11:43:41Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Good point, Mijin. Although I would hasten to point out that we are also the people who have done the most to advance the philosophical and legal structures behind civil liberties and human rights. We contain multitudes. Who is “we” ? Europeans and those descended from Europeans? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/971 "2018-04-04T12:25:48Z")
Yes. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/972 "2018-04-04T13:55:30Z")
So we’re talking the genetics of whole continents, now? What happened to extended families? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/973 "2018-04-04T14:44:10Z")
So we come full circle, The OP doing the same misguided maneuver of the original post: ‘you hear this and then discuss… no, I will not point to what was the main point.’ What Could Go Wrong? So Sam is pulling an [Argument ad Sir Robin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZwuTo7zKM8). And so we can see also that even the defenders of the scientific racists are not as enthusiastic but equivocators X 10, 'never mind that the evidence is iffy, lets continue applying a scientific patina to see if it will stick,\*\* if not in the scientific community\*\*, at least in the current political environment that is so ripe for racists to apply their social “solutions” > **[Racism is creeping back into mainstream science – we have to stop it | Angela...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/22/eugenics-racism-mainstream-science)** > > ‘Scientific’ eugenics is grabbing a foothold in respected journals. The claim that these theories are part of a credible debate should worry us all, says Angela Saini, author of Inferior > [@](#): > > The editor-in-chief of Intelligence is Richard J Haier, an \*\*emeritus \*\*professor in the medical school at the University of California, Irvine. Now, I have plenty of experience on other discussions related to science to realize that that means that he is a researcher that is not active in their field anymore. Too many of those in the fringe sciences to count. > [@](#): > > Haier also told me that he had defended the late Arthur Jensen, a professor of educational psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, who in 1969 mooted in the Harvard Educational Review that gaps in intelligence test results between black and white students might be down to genetics. It remains one of the most controversial papers published in psychology. “Scientific intelligence research has laboured under this cloud for 50 years, and it is my stated goal as editor to help bring intelligence research back into the mainstream,” he added. > > An Elsevier spokesperson says editorial board members are not involved in making decisions about which articles will be published: “Their role is focused on reflecting the academic debate that takes place within the communities’ domain that the journal serves.” The implication is that the kind of papers written by Meisenberg and Lynn must be a part of mainstream discussion. > > But the steady creep of extreme views from the fringes of academia to the everyday should worry us all. Academic freedom is an honourable ideal, and one worth defending, because we trust that the system works. Through careful checks and peer review, only the most reliable, well-evidenced ideas, and most trustworthy researchers, should pass through. > > But in practice the system does fail. Poor papers do get published, weak research can pass through the net, and people’s prejudices can sometimes taint the process. This is what those at the disreputable edges of academia are counting on. As for Andrew Sullivan: What a great choice to show this has nothing to do with racism!.. Not! > **[Andrew Sullivan Is Still Racist After All These Years ❧ Current Affairs](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/04/andrew-sullivan-is-still-racist-after-all-these-years)** > > Viewing racial groups as undifferentiated blobs defined by stereotypes is a dangerous form of bigotry… > [@](#): > > Regardless of what judgments are being made, positive or negative, the inclination to judge people by their race is poisonous. Certain white people see nothing wrong with classifying Asians as “smart” or “hard-working.” After all, what could possibly be objectionable about stereotyping someone as intelligent? But all racial stereotypes have deleterious impacts, particularly on children. For many young Asian Americans, the “Model Minority” stereotype causes serious psychological anxiety. Because, thanks to racial stereotypes, they are expected to be scientifically-minded, humble, and diligent, Asian American students often feel a sense of inadequacy if they cannot live up to unreasonable expectations, an incredible psychological burden of racial expectation that leads to not seeking help when they are struggling and has been linked to suicide. (Some schools even offer counseling for Asian students trying to deal with the mental health consequences inflicted by Sullivan’s worldview.) Every racial stereotype is ugly, and every single one hurts the people to whom it is applied, and the very idea of a “true, positive” racial stereotype is both unscientific and insidious. > > (It’s worth mentioning that Sullivan’s perspective also conforms to a common line of thinking among those who emphasize the importance of racial categories: that if one sees Asians as superior, one cannot be racist. I have seen this repeatedly from those who attempt to defend Bell Curve-type thinking; they believe that if they claim Asians are equal or superior to whites, they cannot be white supremacists. Here we should note the implications of this worldview: that someone who used the n-word and advocated the return of Jim Crow would not be racist so long as he carved out an exception for Asians. And that’s not a theoretical argument: white South Africans exempted Japanese people from Apartheid restrictions by making them “honorary whites.” The fact is that it doesn’t matter what your racial hierarchy is; if you have a racial hierarchy at all, you’re a racist. If you think black people are lazy, but Asian people are superhumans, you are being racist against both groups by treating them as cartoons instead of people.) > > There are other serious deficiencies with Sullivan’s argument. For one thing, in his attempt to blame racial cultural traits for differing economic outcomes, Sullivan does not give a moment’s consideration to the differences in history between groups. It’s been pointed out over and over that since black people disproportionately consist of the descendants of slaves, while large numbers of Asian American immigrants are among the most prosperous and well-educated in their home countries, it’s absurd to attribute the resulting economic disparities to freely-made cultural and behavioral choices. An honest person would at least mention and discuss the importance of differences in background, including the education levels of Asian immigrants and the fact that black people spent two centuries being whipped, raped, and killed. Sullivan does not mention and discuss these things. Therefore Sullivan is not an honest person. > > That dishonesty is the central problem with Sullivan’s passage. The causes of people’s economic and education outcomes are of central concern to the social sciences; an extraordinary amount of research is done on these topics. Sullivan pretends that this research does not exist, acting as if the long conversation on the errors and dangers of the Model Minority myth simply has not been happening, even though it has been going on for multiple decades. He wishes to beat up on the “social justice” types for their comical view that America is racist, without considering any of the actual evidence they put forth to support the view that America is racist. This means that Andrew Sullivan is not interested in finding out the truth, but in advancing a particular prejudiced worldview. > > One has to conclude, then, that Sullivan hasn’t learned much since the days when he helped midwife The Bell Curve and grant flimsy race science a veneer of intellectual respectability. He still believes race is a reasonable prism through which to view the world, and that if only our racial stereotypes are “true,” they are acceptable. He is therefore an unreliable and ideologically-biased guide to political and social science. He is also a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/974 "2018-04-04T15:57:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You and everyone else seem to have avoided my “what if you’re the baddies” question. What if it’s not the fault of teachers and administrators that test scores in so-called “failing schools” don’t rise? Do you think that school profiled in Mother Jones should be punished or closed down? I haven’t “avoided” that question because I never attempted to address that issue. I’m just here for fighting the ignorance on drawing unwarranted inferences about race, genetics and intelligence from racial-group differences in IQ test results. If that particular dispute is now resolved, I’m happy to let the argument over school disciplinary approaches proceed without me. ---
**Author:** ![Batano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Batano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batano)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/975 "2018-04-04T16:44:53Z")
Just for kicks, I submitted my 23andMe genetic info to a site that looks for markers associated with intelligence. I’m as white as can be: both sides English/Scottish /Irish. I worked as a SW engineer for years, have 12 patents, and had SAT scores in top 5%. Your typical computer nerd. The results? Below average predicted IQ. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/976 "2018-04-04T17:02:30Z")
I started a thread in GD for this link, but I think it fits into this conversation as well: > **[Extensive Data Shows Punishing Reach of Racism for Black Boys (Published 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html)** > > A study of 20 million children shows the fragility of the American Dream. Notably: > [@](#): > > Black boys raised in America, even in the wealthiest families and living in some of the most well-to-do neighborhoods, still earn less in adulthood than white boys with similar backgrounds, according to a sweeping new study that traced the lives of millions of children. > > White boys who grow up rich are likely to remain that way. Black boys raised at the top, however, are more likely to become poor than to stay wealthy in their own adult households. > > \ > > Even when children grow up next to each other with parents who earn similar incomes, black boys fare worse than white boys in 99 percent of America. And the gaps only worsen in the kind of neighborhoods that promise low poverty and good schools. > > According to the study, led by researchers at Stanford, Harvard and the Census Bureau, income inequality between blacks and whites is driven entirely by what is happening among these boys and the men they become. Though black girls and women face deep inequality on many measures, black and white girls from families with comparable earnings attain similar individual incomes as adults. That last part is key. I’ve heard a lot of justification from various “blacks = genetically inferior in intellect” advocates, in past threads, referring to data that shows test scores (and other outcomes) for children of wealthy black families are significantly lower than those of wealthy white families. I think it’s a weak justification anyway (if society treats people unequally based on race, then outcomes are not necessarily going to be equal), but this new data might blow even this out of the water, especially if the test score data looks the same as the income data (hopefully researchers will look at that as well soon). This shows that black girls reach the same incomes (or even slightly higher, in the graph) as white girls raised in families with the same income, though black boys do considerably worse than white boys raised in families with the same income. If black girls, on average, perform just as well (or even slightly better) as white girls raised with the same family income, then it’s hard to see a rational argument that those black girls are inherently inferior in intellect on average. And if black girls are inherently the same (or slightly better) in intellect compared to white girls, then what possible mechanism could render black boys inherently genetically inferior in intellect to white boys, on average? ---
**Author:** ![Batano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Batano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batano)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/977 "2018-04-04T17:15:42Z")
Something on the Y chromosome? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/978 "2018-04-04T19:30:55Z")
GIGO, please look into “fair use”. I post long quoteboxes myself, but I put significant effort into snipping everything I possibly can. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/979 "2018-04-04T19:33:13Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I haven’t “avoided” that question because I never attempted to address that issue. I’m just here for fighting the ignorance on drawing unwarranted inferences about race, genetics and intelligence from racial-group differences in IQ test results. If that particular dispute is now resolved, I’m happy to let the argument over school disciplinary approaches proceed without me. It’s obviously not resolved. Can you at least admit that on this topic, you bend over backward to avoid Ockham’s Razor, as though you think it’s going to cut your jugular? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/980 "2018-04-04T20:43:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Can you at least admit that on this topic, you bend over backward to avoid Ockham’s Razor, as though you think it’s going to cut your jugular? Quite the contrary. Ockham’s Razor would actually favor the \*\*non-\*\*genetic explanation of measured racial differences in IQ test scores. Namely, since we don’t have any scientific evidence that racial category has a genetic impact on test scores, but we have plenty of evidence that racial category does have a **social** impact on test scores, the simplest resolution would be to assume that non-genetic social factors account for all the difference. I don’t advocate making that assumption, because I think it’s stupid to prematurely assert any particular solution to a problem that we still don’t fully understand just because we’re looking for a simple answer. But there’s no question that if we **were** just looking for the simplest answer, the non-genetic hypothesis would provide a way simpler explanation than the genetic one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=50)