# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame)

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 52

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**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\
**Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1021 "2018-04-06T05:24:45Z")

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> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> Indeed. And Murray, Haier, Harris, etc. should be asked about this. But neither of us has gotten an answer for why the question cannot be debated civilly with both sides offering arguments and evidence, rather than jeering and shouting down anyone not on the PC side.

I have an answer.

The thing is, studying the genes behind intelligence is useful, or the neurology.  
Studying small populations that have abnormally high or low IQs might be useful.

Studying populations of hundreds of millions of people, where we know there’s massive amounts of overlap is about as useful as trying to settle which “race” has the biggest dicks.

That’s not to say we mustn’t do it: science is not only about what’s useful and sometimes paths that didn’t seem useful turn out to be. It’s just to say the whole “suppressing science” thing is BS: the people most interested in this area are the bigots, they are the people who want to classify people based on appearance.

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**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\
**Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1022 "2018-04-06T08:05:04Z")

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> [@Mijin](#):
>
> The thing is, studying the genes behind intelligence is useful, or the neurology.  
> Studying small populations that have abnormally high or low IQs might be useful.
> 
> Studying populations of hundreds of millions of people, where we know there’s massive amounts of overlap is about as useful as trying to settle which “race” has the biggest dicks.
> 
> That’s not to say we mustn’t do it: science is not only about what’s useful and sometimes paths that didn’t seem useful turn out to be. It’s just to say the whole “suppressing science” thing is BS: the people most interested in this area are the bigots, they are the people who want to classify people based on appearance.

Still doesn’t address the issue of punitive measures against so-called “failing schools”. If there are reasons beyond schools’ control (including but not limited to genetics) for inner city blacks’ low test scores, as I believe, then these hardworking teachers and administrators are being unfairly scapegoated. Which is not a blow only to their self esteem but a threat to their very livelihood or at least career advancement.

> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> :dubious: A-[HEM](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20887320&postcount=1007).

Oy, the false equivalency. Yes, I asked you if you would admit you were “bending over backward to avoid Ockham’s Razor” and concluded that Sam was right to characterize his critics as “abandoning scientific parsimony for the sake of political correctness”. Guilty as charged. Now let’s take a look at some of what has been dished up on the other side:

> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#):
>
> Go away, kid.
> 
> For those of us who read that fish-brained, bigoted pile of pseudoscience the first time around, and the many pieces debunking it, and listened to all the debates surrounding it, and had a right to think we’d put it behind us, listening to Charles Murray cry about it today is not necessary or helpful.

> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> Bolding mine. Fucking _cosigned_. Murray belongs in the same category as Andrew Wakefield and Peter Duesburg - absolutely terrible pseudoscientists whose main, horribly flawed or dishonest work resulted in the world being a substantially worse place. The fact that he got attacked for going to a university should _not_ by any stretch of the imagination be an excuse to give them more exposure. It should be seen as a reason to ask, “what the fuck is wrong with this university?!”

> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> My God you’re being dense. Race is no more valid a biological or genetic concept than national origin. That doesn’t mean that it’s not a real sociological and historical concept. There are no biological races.

> [@andros](#):
>
> That nice Mr Hitler, for example, had some very good ideas.

> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> Good god, you are one stupid son of a bitch. I don’t even think it’s worth it arguing with him, anymore people.

Have you (Kimstu) gone this far? No. Are there others in the general camp of Harris/Murray/SlackerInc critics who have been more tempered in their rhetoric? Yes. But none of them have called out any of these people for their overreaching or their lack of civility in discussing this issue. To me that comes across as implicitly endorsing that approach, even if you don’t engage in it yourself.

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**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\
**Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1023 "2018-04-06T09:37:55Z")

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_I’ve_ been fairly into keeping this thread focused on the actual topic - just about how much of a racist waste of oxygen you, **SlackBrain** , personally, are.

The convo about how much you’re in love with Sam Harris is fairly boring to me, the way all witterings by or about Harris tend to be. Take it to Great Debates if you want a polite borefest celebration of scientific racism, racists.

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**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\
**Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1024 "2018-04-06T11:42:25Z")

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> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> Still doesn’t address the issue of punitive measures against so-called “failing schools”. If there are reasons beyond schools’ control (including but not limited to genetics) for inner city blacks’ low test scores, as I believe, then these hardworking teachers and administrators are being unfairly scapegoated. Which is not a blow only to their self esteem but a threat to their very livelihood or at least career advancement.

Well I didn’t address that because that’s not what was just being talked about and what my post was responding to.

Can we just say nobody thinks teachers should be treated unfairly and move on from that straw man? Whether blacks have the same IQs on average or not, teachers shouldn’t be considered solely responsible for uneven results. The end

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**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\
**Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1025 "2018-04-06T13:49:14Z")

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> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> … let’s take a look at some of what has been dished up on the other side…

Point of order, you hypocritical racist crybaby: I’m neither in a camp nor on a side in this “debate.” I just enjoy goading you for acting like a hypocrite, a racist, and a crybaby.  
.

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**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\
**Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1026 "2018-04-06T14:54:28Z")

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> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> Have you (Kimstu) gone this far? No. Are there others in the general camp of Harris/Murray/SlackerInc critics who have been more tempered in their rhetoric? Yes. But none of them have called out any of these people for their overreaching or their lack of civility in discussing this issue. To me that comes across as implicitly endorsing that approach, even if you don’t engage in it yourself.

:dubious: “Calling out people for overreaching or lack of civility” doesn’t seem particularly appropriate in the BBQ Pit. Even I, always the soul of ladylike propriety 😛 with a general aversion to unrestrained effing and blinding at people no matter what the forum, don’t take offense at anybody else’s letting loose in the Pit.

If you don’t want a discussion to become intemperate or uncivil, then, you know, maybe don’t open it in a messageboard forum specifically devoted to rhetorical intemperance and incivility. Or if you do choose that path, then don’t complain if other posters say uncivil things to you. Or if you do feel bound to complain about other posters’ incivility anyway, then for the sake of consistency you shouldn’t be saying uncivil things yourself, even if they’re substantially less uncivil than what some other posters are saying to you.

Anyway, on to the [previously-linked article](https://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/08/mission-high-false-low-performing-school/) that you asked me about:

> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> […] the powerful coalition of “school reformers” includes those anti-union forces on the right, but also a big contingent of left wingers who blame “failing schools” for the fact that black kids score significantly lower on aptitude tests than do white kids. […]
> 
> What if you’re wrong, and these kids really can’t reasonably score any higher than they do already? Yet the law and the “reform” movement refuses to recognize this fact. Isn’t this exactly what we’ll see? Things will get shaken up over and over regardless of how good the school staff is, regardless of how happy the kids and parents are. […]
> 
> […] the issue of punitive measures against so-called “failing schools”. If there are reasons beyond schools’ control (including but not limited to genetics) for inner city blacks’ low test scores, as I believe, then these hardworking teachers and administrators are being unfairly scapegoated. Which is not a blow only to their self esteem but a threat to their very livelihood or at least career advancement.

Having now read the article, I think that the question of whether or not racial-group differences in IQ test scores are genetic in origin is almost entirely irrelevant to the debate over “failing schools”, for the following reasons:

1. I think the NCLB-style testing-heavy approach to so-called “school reform” is dumb for a whole lot of reasons independent of student IQ. Effective teaching of students, whether smart, dumb, privileged, disadvantaged, non-native-English-speaking, or whatever is not a simple or one-size-fits-all task, and trying to adapt it to optimizing performance on one-size-fits-all standardized tests doesn’t serve anybody well.

2. The standardized tests that the so-called “failing schools” are “underperforming” on are very different from IQ tests, and many students have difficulty with them for a variety of non-IQ-related reasons. For example, the testing experience of the student “Maria” described in the article was shipwrecked on her language difficulties as a not-fully-proficient English speaker, rather than on any problem with her fundamental intelligence or cognitive ability.

So I think we should all be supporting struggling schools that manage to increase their students’ interest and proficiency in their school work, graduation and college acceptance rates, etc. And we should all be opposing mindless across-the-board quantitative metrics for shoehorning student success into a particular template.

But I don’t see why the question of student IQ needs to be brought into it at all. **If standardized tests are intrinsically a clumsy, biased and imprecise tool for measuring student success, then we don’t need to come up with IQ-based excuses for why some otherwise successful students don’t score well on them.**  
[_gently replaces mic in stand in a ladylike proper way_]

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**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\
**Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1027 "2018-04-06T18:19:04Z")

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> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> _I’ve_ been fairly into keeping this thread focused on the actual topic - just about how much of a racist waste of oxygen you, **SlackBrain** , personally, are.
> 
> The convo about how much you’re in love with Sam Harris is fairly boring to me, the way all witterings by or about Harris tend to be. Take it to Great Debates if you want a polite borefest celebration of scientific racism, racists.

So how much can the respective beliefs in these threads be attributed to environment? And how was that environment created? By other people whose intellects were shaped by environment?

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**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\
**Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1028 "2018-04-06T18:39:36Z")

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Great drop mike **Kimstu**.

> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> :dubious: “Calling out people for overreaching or lack of civility” doesn’t seem particularly appropriate in the BBQ Pit. Even I, always the soul of ladylike propriety 😛 with a general aversion to unrestrained effing and blinding at people no matter what the forum, don’t take offense at anybody else’s letting loose in the Pit.

It is worse when one considers that early on SlackerInc admitted that he brought it to the Pit because he doesn’t “trust that it can be discussed elsewhere without risk of running into some kind of moderation against “hate speech”.”

Meaning that he also did expect the flack, but he is such a snowflake that he as to complain about it anyhow.

It also shows that even he is aware that he would try to do the damndest things to continue to polish the turds from Murray and their ilk.

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**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\
**Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1029 "2018-04-06T19:30:16Z")

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That’s exactly why. If I thought it was safe to discuss this in GD or even GQ, I would prefer to do it there.

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**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1030 "2018-04-09T12:32:15Z")

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Harris and Klein finally speak to each other! I’ve only just started reading the transcript, but here it is:

> **[The Sam Harris-Ezra Klein debate](https://www.vox.com/2018/4/9/17210248/sam-harris-ezra-klein-charles-murray-transcript-podcast)**
>
> Ezra and Sam Harris debate race, IQ, identity politics, and much more.

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**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1031 "2018-04-09T13:38:17Z")

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I am listening rather than reading.

I’m less than halfway through, but I wanted to highlight something Klein said that I think is very insightful. He said that traditionally, people think of there being racists and anti-racists. But he has increasingly noticed a third group which he calls “anti-anti-racists”. YES. Bingo! If I were talking to him, I would interject “You say it like it’s a bad thing., Ezra.”

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**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1032 "2018-04-09T14:22:34Z")

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Okay, finished reading through once. Here are my initial thoughts:

Lots of talking past each other, and though it was contentious, at least it was largely personal-attack free.

Harris’s main points seem to be a combination of the following:

Murray’s gotten a raw deal by academia and intelligentsia and his books/papers on race and intelligence are not junk science or pseudoscience;  
It’s reasonable to look at IQ test score data (and other intelligence-test related statistics) and extrapolate to genetics-based suppositions about differences between groups without considering history and sociology;  
Harris/Murray and allies are much too quickly called racists/bigots and this makes it almost impossible to reasonably investigate these questions.

Klein’s main points by my reading:

Murray’s books/papers on race and intelligence are largely poor science, and most of the criticism has been substantive and scientific and not political;  
It’s not reasonable at all (and even harmful and highly inaccurate) to look at IQ test score data and other intelligence-test related statistics and extrapolate anything about genetic differences between groups without considering our history and biases in society;  
Most of the criticism, or the criticism most discussed, of Harris and Murray (and others) is substantitve and on the science, not the politics.

The first and third points of both probably dominated most of the conversation (along with lots of personal stuff re: Harris and perceived injustice towards him), but I think the second is the most important. Extrapolating anything about the genetics of intelligence between groups from test scores (or other raw statistics) alone in modern society, or recent history, is akin to trying to extrapolate anything about group differences in genetics for farming/physical labor abilities from a series of still photographs of a Louisiana plantation in 1855. Not only would it be leaving out some vital data (about how society treats these groups, much of which can be measured statistically), but it would almost certainly lead to highly inaccurate and scientifically unsupported assertions about genetics.

That is, IMO, by far the most important criticism of Murray and others who believe that present test score data tells us anything about genetics for intelligence between groups; not only that present data does not reasonably lead to these conclusions, but that in a society like ours that has treated (and still does in many ways) black people and others so profoundly poorly, it necessarily _cannot_ tell us anything about genetic differences between groups, any more than statistics about slavery could tell us anything about any genetic tendencies between groups in the qualities of leadership and servility.

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**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1033 "2018-04-09T14:41:41Z")

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> [@Ezra Klein](#):
>
> I promise you I will get to your bias very quickly.
> 
> I do want you to know, you mentioned James Flynn here. To prepare for this conversation, I called Flynn the other day. I spoke to him on Monday. His read of the evidence right now, and this is me quoting him. He says, “I think it is more probably than not that the IQ difference between black and white Americans is environmental. As a social scientist, I cannot be sure if they have a genetic advantage or disadvantage.” That is what James Flynn thinks of Monday.

And that is after Sam told Klein (and all of us) about ‘how to properly interpret Flynn’ as if Flinn was mistaken and that he (and Murray too) are right.

I have to say that Sam is still depending on the wrong kind of crowd for support, not to also say that _ **this is the 21st centur** _y, one should be capable of contacting the experts before telling someone that they properly “understand” what that experts are telling us:

(Annie Hall (1977) scene with Marshall McLuhan)

> [@](#):
>
> Man in Theatre Line: Oh, really? Well, it just so happens I teach a class at Columbia called “TV, Media and Culture.” So I think my insights into Mr. McLuhan, well, have a great deal of validity!
> 
> Alvy Singer: Oh, do ya? Well, that’s funny, because I happen to have Mr. McLuhan right here, so, so, yeah, just let me…
> 
> [pulls McLuhan out from behind a nearby poster]
> 
> Alvy Singer: come over here for a second… tell him!
> 
> Marshall McLuhan: I heard what you were saying! You know nothing of my work! You mean my whole fallacy [about how bad the work being criticized was] is wrong. How you got to teach a course in anything is totally amazing!
> 
> Alvy Singer: Boy, if life were only like this!

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1034 "2018-04-09T15:03:39Z")

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> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Klein’s main points by my reading:
> 
> Murray’s books/papers on race and intelligence are largely poor science, and most of the criticism has been substantive and scientific and not political;

Your reading? LOL, more like your posts! I challenge you to cite from the transcript a justification for this reading. My reading was that Klein very much focused on politics and potential policy implications, and very little on the science.

Here are some excerpts from the transcript I found interesting. I have added a notation to each as to who is speaking:

> [@](#):
>
> KLEIN: The other thing I want to say about this, and this gets very importantly to Charles Murray’s work. You’re a neuroscientist. And so I get that you look at Murray and you look at The Bell Curve and what you see are the tables and the appendices and the scientific version of Charles Murray.  
> I’m a policy journalist. My background is I live in Washington, DC, I cover politics. Charles Murray — not just to me, what he literally is — is what we call a policy entrepreneur. He’s somebody who his entire career has been spent at Washington think tanks. He’s at the American Enterprise Institute, where I have a lot of friends, and I respect that organization quite a bit. He argues in different ways and throughout his entire body of work for policy outcomes.

This is a fair criticism of Murray’s motives, and it is completely fair to establish that he is not just going about pure science for its own sake, for curiosity, or to expand human knowledge. But as Klein seems to implicitly acknowledge here, that doesn’t mean Murray’s data is bogus. So it’s when the anti-racists get hyped up and insist on trying to discredit him on the science itself that they ultimately damage themselves, because they are not really engaging based on science, logic, and following wherever the evidence leads.

> [@](#):
>
> HARRIS: I think it was three years ago, or four years ago. I think it was 2014 where there were some, there were reports about neanderthal DNA. I think it’s David Reich whose op-ed in the New York Times kicked off our latest skirmish, I think it’s based on his work. It was found that most human beings are walking around with around 2.7 percent neanderthal DNA. At the time, but it was found that the only people who don’t have neanderthal DNA are black people, people who directly descend with some isolation from Africa, from the rest of the human community.  
> At the time I tweeted, this is now 2014, I tweeted, “Attention all racists, you are right. We are special, or whites are special. We’re part neanderthal. Blacks are just human.” It just was a trolling of the world’s racists.  
> Now the fact that I tweeted that should give you as a journalist some indication of what I think about white supremacy. But what if the data had broken the other way? What if the only people on Earth, who were part neanderthal, were black? What then? What would have happened to anyone who reported those data? What would’ve, would that have been an example of trafficking in the most deeply harmful tropes? It’s just pure good luck it broke the other way. And yet, this is the kind of thing that will keep coming at us.

Great questions!

> [@](#):
>
> KLEIN: What I think is so interesting about the way [Murray] takes this debate — and I recognize this is not somewhere you took the debate, but I do think this is a useful thing to talk about — is that if you really did believe things immutable, if you really did believe that this was our inheritance both environmental and genetic and we can’t do much about it, then I think the implications of that are radical, and the implications aren’t that you take away help from people. It’s that you say pretty much what all of us has is primarily illegitimate. We didn’t do anything to earn it. I just happened to be born with the collection of talents that got me where I am. And as such, what we should spread around in society is much more vast.  
> Funnily enough, I don’t ever see people take that attitude on this. Again, the history of these ideas in America is they tend to be used to justify the status quo, not radically more generous versions of the status quo, but I do think that’s interesting, and I don’t understand why people don’t take that leap.

Me! Over here! I’m leaping!!!

> [@](#):
>
> HARRIS: But we might find out that certain stereotypes are true. I mean Turkheimer used an example in one of his pieces. I think it was this second one where he said, “What if someone does a genetic analysis of materialism, or finds multivariate genes that co-vary with a person’s materialism, and we find that these genes are over expressed among Jews what then?”  
> He put this out as though like this was going to be radioactive that it’s just going to bowl me over, or bowl anyone over who didn’t care about the black-white data, but all of a sudden care about the Jewish data. But that’s a perfectly legitimate question. I’m not suggesting anyone study that. Again, I would worry about the ethics of anyone who wanted, in the wilderness of all possible things to study, wanted to devote his or her life to studying that.  
> But that’s the kind of thing that could just emerge from the study of hoarding behavior. Someone studies the psychological problem of hoarding and they study the genetics of it, and then they just happen to discover that the genetics are represented differently in different populations, and Ashkenazi Jews, of which half of my ancestry is, have more of the hoarding genes than other people. Do we deal with that like adults? Or do we vilify the person who merely spoke about the data? That’s the bright line I’m trying to get you acknowledge.

I had the exact same response to that part of Turkheimer’s argument. I did not at all have the reaction he thought his opponents would reflexively have. But I figured he would just write me off as being worse than the people he was trying to talk to, because I must obviously be a vicious anti-Semite in addition to being a racist. Basically a full-fledged Nazi. :rolleyes:

> [@](#):
>
> KLEIN: If you want to have discussions about very precise population categories, I think that we should come up with good language for doing that. I think that if you read a lot of these studies, people do.

Here again, he seems to be acknowledging that IQ differences could very well track with more precisely defined ethnic groups, but that the racial categories we generally use are far too broad and murky. I agree with this.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1035 "2018-04-09T16:09:32Z")

</div>

> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> Your reading? LOL, more like your posts! I challenge you to cite from the transcript a justification for this reading. My reading was that Klein very much focused on politics and potential policy implications, and very little on the science.

That is because it was an embarrassment when science is only used partially by Murray to justify his (and the other scientific racists) societal solutions.

> [@Klein](#):
>
> He [Murray] literally says, and again I can quote this to you if you’d like, he says, for one thing, we have all these low cognitive capacity women giving birth, and by having the social supports for poor children in this country, we are subsidizing them to give birth. What we need to do is take those subsidies away. These women, who according to his book are disproportionately African American, their poor children should not get as much federal support when they are born, so they are disincentivized to have as many children.
> 
> He also says that we have all these folks who are Hispanic coming up over the border, that our immigration policy is letting in too many low-IQ people. While he’s not quite as prescriptive in that part, he’s pretty clear that he wants us to change our immigration policy, in order to resist dysgenic pressure.

That, together with Murray’s clear failure to see how Hispanics can demonstrate how wrong he and others are regarding the progress they can get, should be enough to put Murray and their ilk into the same column as “scientists” like [Velikovsky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky).

> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> Me! Over here! I’m leaping!!!

Right into polishing the turd again:

> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> Here again, he seems to be acknowledging that IQ differences could very well track with more precisely defined ethnic groups, but that the racial categories we generally use are far too broad and murky. I agree with this.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1036 "2018-04-09T16:48:14Z")

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I read the transcript while on the train. It sounds like:

- Harris: These are the data. They show some populations have a lower IQ. Progressives are getting in a panic when it is just the data.
- Klein: The data are derived from within a social context within which African-Americans are biased against socio-economically and have been for hundreds of years.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\
**Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1037 "2018-04-10T03:17:02Z")

</div>

> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> Thoughts?

I think you’re a troll.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\
**Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1038 "2018-04-10T04:15:02Z")

</div>

That was worth clicking.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\
**Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1039 "2018-04-10T07:35:37Z")

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It totally was 🙂

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\
**Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1040 "2018-04-10T12:23:09Z")

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Richard Haier (who defended Harris/Murray), from an article dated today:

> **[Sam Harris, Ezra Klein Finally Discuss Intelligence Without Calling Names](https://thefederalist.com/2018/04/10/sam-harris-ezra-klein-finally-discuss-human-intelligence-without-calling-names/)**
>
> We should be able to discuss the data on human intelligence without a pejorative assumption that people who have the discussion are racist or malevolent.

> [@](#):
>
> Nevertheless, there is wide agreement that at this point we do not have enough DNA-based evidence to conclude anything with confidence about how average group differences on complex traits like intelligence come about.

That’s, fundamentally, the entire argument I’ve been making. Maybe lots of folks (including some researchers like Haier) have feelings and think it’s likely that genetics is involved in average group differences in intelligence. But those feelings aren’t from any DNA-based evidence. And feelings aren’t conclusions.

And when feelings about genetics aren’t based on DNA evidence, and they just so happen to confirm the assertions about black people made by white supremacists, then it’s reasonable to consider the possibility that the widespread and insidious white supremacism in our culture and society is having some influence these folks, whatever their motive.

Paraphrasing someone Klein referenced whose name I recall, I hold that it’s utterly ludicrous to look at the insane and sadistic experiment that America has run on black people, and conclude that statistical indicators, whether criminal, economic, or educational/academic, can tell us anything at all about inherent inborn (i.e. genetic) abilities.

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