# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1181 "2018-04-13T20:58:43Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes, black schoolchildren have significantly more money spent on their education than do white children in the same district. This is exactly the opposite of the situation before Brown. And still that is not the only factor (if that was so), but we know already how the Slacker’s mind works… [It’s got to be the genes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhHONpmlxPc)… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1182 "2018-04-13T21:01:14Z")
My wife personally gets outstanding performance reviews. But this “Waiting for Superman” “reform” movement is a threat to her profession generally. So that’s great if you don’t blame schools or teachers, but a very powerful group does, and makes this the default scapegoat for the test score gap they axiomatically insist cannot be anything inherent about the kids that teachers can’t change. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > No, it is not. That was enlightening. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1183 "2018-04-13T21:03:08Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That was enlightening. Do you really need it spoonfed to you, Mr Category 2? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1184 "2018-04-13T21:04:51Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I simply don’t believe this. Spatig-Amerikaner found that public schools spend, on average, $334 more on white students than on nonwhite students. That per-pupil spending disparity, when compared between schools that are mostly white and those that are comprised mostly of nonwhite students, is even more stark. In schools where 90 percent or more of students were white, per-pupil spending was $733 more than in schools where more than 90 percent of students were nonwhite. Roughly one-third of the students who are represented in the national data set attend such racially segregated schools, according to the report. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1185 "2018-04-13T21:07:50Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I simply don’t believe this. > **[Is Special Education Racist?](https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/07/the-racial-imbalances-of-special-education/397775/)** > > A new study says blacks and Latinos are underrepresented in special-ed classes, but lots of researchers say the exact opposite. > [@](#): > > Six million disabled children in the U.S. receive special education. However, African American children do so at a much higher rate—1.4 times that of white children. > **[Special Education | NEA](https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/action-center/our-issues/special-education)** > > All students deserve an education that sparks their curiosity and desire to learn. Special education fits our most vulnerable students’ unique needs. > [@](#): > > The current average per student cost is $7,552 and the average cost per special education student is an additional $9,369 per student, or $16,921. Evil or not, you’re not much of an economist if you still disbelieve it after seeing this evidence. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1186 "2018-04-13T21:10:22Z")
Evil, I worded my claim carefully, but you obviosly did not read it carefully. I’ll add bolding for emphasis: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes, black schoolchildren have significantly more money spent on their education than do white children **in the same district.** ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1187 "2018-04-13T21:18:01Z")
Evil, I thought it was fishy that you posted an excerpt without a link to look it up, so I Googled. Center for American Progress, right? You left out (or more charitably, didn’t see) this part: > [@](#): > > The purpose of this data collection was to analyze state and local spending on general education in districts receiving Title I funds. This means that some big cat- egories of spending were excluded, among them all federal dollars, expenditures on special education, adult education, school nutrition programs, summer school, preschool, and employee benefits (other than salaries). :dubious: Except for those things, eh? What a joke. You should be embarrassed for offering this up as supposed evidence of your position. Pfffft. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1188 "2018-04-13T21:18:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Evil, I worded my claim carefully, but you obviosly did not read it carefully. I’ll add bolding for emphasis: So your claim is that regular black schoolchildren receive less funding than regular white schoolchildren, and special education black schoolchildren receive less funding than special education white schoolchildren, but that there are enough special education black schoolchildren to make overall spend higher for black schoolchildren, even though they’re being discriminated against on a like-to-like basis? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1189 "2018-04-13T21:19:17Z")
Anything else? I’ve only got 41 more minutes to dunk on you fools. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1190 "2018-04-13T21:21:28Z")
My original claim was limited and straightforward: Within any given school district, black kids get more spent on their education, per capita, than is spent on white kids, per capita, in the same district. However, after seeing what you posted and everything it excluded, I’m wondering if this might not also be true for the country as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1191 "2018-04-13T21:23:16Z")
Uggh, I wasted my time. Enjoy reveling in your bigotry, asshole. That’s a shitty thing to be, and especially a shitty thing to celebrate. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that black people are inherently inferior, on average, to others, shithead. And lots of reasons to disbelieve it. Stop spreading bigoted nonsense. Your attitude hurts kids and hurts America. Uggh again. I hope you don’t spread this bullshit to your kids. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1192 "2018-04-13T21:24:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > My original claim was limited and straightforward: Within any given school district, black kids get more spent on their education, per capita, than is spent on white kids, per capita, in the same district. However, after seeing what you posted and everything it excluded, I’m wondering if this might not also be true for the country as a whole. I asked you a question–is it your claim that black schoolchildren receive less funding than \*equivalent \*white schoolchildren (on a district-by-district basis)? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1193 "2018-04-13T21:32:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Evil, I worded my claim carefully, but you obviosly did not read it carefully. I’ll add bolding for emphasis: That is nice, we can then say in bold that \*\*you really have an incomplete mind when dealing with cites: \*\* > [@](#): > > Morgan, a professor at Pennsylvania State University, told National Journal that while the finding was surprising, other fields like pediatrics help explain why this might be. > > “We know that minorities are much more likely to be exposed to health risk at a young age,” Morgan says. “Low birth weight or being exposed to lead can have consequences on your cognitive growth. Poverty itself can have an impact.” > > That, Morgan says, may be why the percentage of minority children who should be in special education is larger than the percentage of minority children in the school population as a whole. More of them live in poverty, which causes health problems in childhood. In the op-ed, Morgan and Farkas pointed out that 35 percent of black children in inner cities have elevated levels of lead in their blood, compared with just 4 percent of white children. And African American children are about twice as likely to be born prematurely. Another thing that may prevent black and Latino kids from being identified as disabled is that fewer have health insurance or regularly visit doctors. > > The problem with these new conclusions, critics say, is the data they began with. > > Losen, who also edited a book called Racial Inequity in Special Education, says the researchers began with skewed data in which black and Latino kids were already underrepresented. He also wonders why, if the researchers wanted a data set much larger, and more accurate, they didn’t use numbers from the Department of Education, which collects data on millions of students—not 20,000—every year in every state. > > “In other words, we know what the nation looks like,” Losen says. And the fact that Morgan and Farkas picked a sample that didn’t represent that, he says, is dubious at best. So, geneticist that in his cites call Murray and their ilk racists, citations that show interventions working for Hispanics that Murray and others said it would not work, citations about dubious studies regarding special education. Yep, it must be incomplete genes in the Slacker’s code… ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1194 "2018-04-13T21:32:58Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I asked you a question–is it your claim that black schoolchildren receive less funding than \*equivalent \*white schoolchildren (on a district-by-district basis)? You’re begging the question, or something in that ballpark. Special education students are not aliens, or a different species. They are children who are found to need extra help to try to stay pace academically with their peers, or to get as close as reasonably possible. Therefore the same issue that incites “reformers” to gripe about “failing schools”, the lower performance on aptitude tests by black students on aptitude tests, is also what gets them disproportionately classified as “SpEd”. This then gives them a great deal of additional help from a high teacher-to-student ratio, along with “paras” (what used to be called aides) to further help them, sometimes one-on-one. So your “comparable” caveat is bullshit. Before Brown, black kids got a lot less spent on their education, regardless of how “comparable” they were or weren’t. Now black kids get more spent on them than white kids. You can parse it out into federal vs. local, SpEd vs. reg ed, exclude nutrition programs and summer school, not to mention preschool…etc., to try to torture the data into saying something it doesn’t. But facts are facts. And facts are stubborn things, sorry pal. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1195 "2018-04-13T21:37:20Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You’re begging the question, or something in that ballpark. Special education students are not aliens, or a different species. They are children who are found to need extra help to try to stay pace academically with their peers, or to get as close as reasonably possible. Therefore the same issue that incites “reformers” to gripe about “failing schools”, the lower performance on aptitude tests by black students on aptitude tests, is also what gets them disproportionately classified as “SpEd”. This then gives them a great deal of additional help from a high teacher-to-student ratio, along with “paras” (what used to be called aides) to further help them, sometimes one-on-one. > > So your “comparable” caveat is bullshit. Before Brown, black kids got a lot less spent on their education, regardless of how “comparable” they were or weren’t. Now black kids get more spent on them than white kids. You can parse it out into federal vs. local, SpEd vs. reg ed, exclude nutrition programs and summer school, not to mention preschool…etc., to try to torture the data into saying something it doesn’t. But facts are facts. And facts are stubborn things, sorry pal. This sounds to me like you’re conceding the fact that black schoolchildren in special education programs get less funding than white schoolchildren in special education programs and that black schoolchildren in regular programs get less spent on them than white schoolchildren in regular programs. Speaking of facts being facts, is the above a fact? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1196 "2018-04-13T21:39:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You’re begging the question, or something in that ballpark. Special education students are not aliens, or a different species. They are children who are found to need extra help to try to stay pace academically with their peers, or to get as close as reasonably possible. Therefore the same issue that incites “reformers” to gripe about “failing schools”, the lower performance on aptitude tests by black students on aptitude tests, is also what gets them disproportionately classified as “SpEd”. This then gives them a great deal of additional help from a high teacher-to-student ratio, along with “paras” (what used to be called aides) to further help them, sometimes one-on-one. > > So your “comparable” caveat is bullshit. Before Brown, black kids got a lot less spent on their education, regardless of how “comparable” they were or weren’t. Now black kids get more spent on them than white kids. You can parse it out into federal vs. local, SpEd vs. reg ed, exclude nutrition programs and summer school, not to mention preschool…etc., to try to torture the data into saying something it doesn’t. But facts are facts. And facts are stubborn things, sorry pal. Just to be clear. Your claim is that if you have two kids in the same classroom, taking the same classes, and one is white, and one is black, that the black student gets more spent on him or her? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1197 "2018-04-13T21:45:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Special education students are not aliens, or a different species. They are children who are found to need extra help to try to stay pace academically with their peers, or to get as close as reasonably possible. Do both black and white schoolchildren in special education programs need this additional help? If so but black schoolchildren in special education programs are getting less of the help, isn’t that an example of the schools failing black students? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1198 "2018-04-13T21:56:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Just to be clear. Your claim is that if you have two kids in the same classroom, taking the same classes, and one is white, and one is black, that the black student gets more spent on him or her? I’m saying that school districts spend more, per capita, including all sources of funding, on their black students than they do on their white students. Put another way: if an average school district gets 100 average black kids as new students one year, their budget will be higher than if they get 100 average white or Asian kids. (I think an argument can be made that more should be spent on gifted programs to equalize this, but if the money is only going to go in one direction, I’m glad the neediest get it.) If they all sat in the same classroom doing the same things, this would be impossible (as would spending less), so your question is nonsensical. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > This sounds to me like you’re conceding the fact that black schoolchildren in special education programs get less funding than white schoolchildren in special education programs and that black schoolchildren in regular programs get less spent on them than white schoolchildren in regular programs. > > Speaking of facts being facts, is the above a fact? No. I’m agnostic on that question. Now, I’ve answered many of your questions directly. I have one for you: Are you embarrassed of your “cite” (with no link) now that I’ve showed the numerous sources of money it excludes? Or do you stubbornly stand by it? (I know you’d rather stick with “no comment”, but that’s dodging the question.) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1199 "2018-04-13T21:58:54Z")
Last call! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1200 "2018-04-13T22:09:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No. I’m agnostic on that question. I don’t know what it means to be agnostic about a fact. Yes or no—do black students receive less funding than white students with similar needs? > [@](#): > > Now, I’ve answered many of your questions directly. I have one for you: > > Are you embarrassed of your “cite” (with no link) now that I’ve showed the numerous sources of money it excludes? Or do you stubbornly stand by it? (I know you’d rather stick with “no comment”, but that’s dodging the question.) I agree that it didn’t address the issue that upon further clarification you were discussing. I wouldn’t use the word embarrassed [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=61)