# Interesting podcast conversation between Sam Harris and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052 "2017-04-23T09:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1281 "2018-04-17T23:56:09Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Seeing as you are too chicken to even tell me what it means to be “white” it just appears to be confirmation bias being used to justify bigotry. > > Or are you willing to own up that as a white male you are a rapist, > > [Home | Bureau of Justice Statistics](https://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOO.PDF) > > Can you justify why you white people are [Pedofiles?](http://ilvoices.org/uploads/3/4/1/6/34164648/who_are_the_people_in_your_neighborhood_-_a_descriptive_analysis_of_individuals_on_public_sex_offender_registries.pdf) who just can’t keep themselves from trying to have sex with [farm animals?](http://www.academia.edu/6359692/Understanding_Bestiality_and_Social_Responses_to_Offenders) > > What good is intelligence if you use it to rape children and animals? What about the cold climate of Europe bred so many sheep lovers? > > Aren’t the other ‘races’ more superior because they are mature enough to not rape or resort to trying to screw children? > > (I get that you won’t get how absurd this is) Maybe sheep are seductive? And who are you to shame others for loving who or what they do? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1282 "2018-04-18T00:18:41Z")
> **[Do school districts spend less money on poor and minority students? | Brookings](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/do-school-districts-spend-less-money-on-poor-and-minority-students/)** > > The U.S. public school system is characterized by large funding differences across districts, but what about differences in school spending within districts? Generally, districts have discretion with respect to how they allocate resources to specific... Brookings says you can find such schools. But: > [@](#): > > We find that, on average, poor and minority students receive between 1-2 percent more resources than non-poor or white students in their districts, equivalent to about $65 per pupil. Although average within-district spending on poor and minority students is positive, not all districts spend more money on these students—in the most unequal districts, they receive between $300-$500 less per pupil. And: > [@](#): > > • In richer districts, poor and Hispanic students receive more school resources, relative to their non-poor and white peers in the same districts. > • Districts with more school segregation—whether socioeconomic or racial—tend to spend more on poor and minority students relative to non-poor and white students. And from the study text, linked in the article: > [@](#): > > Our key descriptive result is that, on average, across nearly all districts in the United States, intra-district spending inequality is limited. Average spending on poor or minority students is 1 to 2 percent higher than on non-poor or white students. Aaaand then there’s this: > [@](#): > > Our primary data for school-level expenditures are taken from the Civil Rights Data Collection (CRDC) for years 2008-09, 2011-12, and 2013-14. Beginning in 2008-09, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) required each school district receiving Title I, Part A, ARRA funds to report school-level expenditures coming from state and local revenues. So once again federal funding is not included! Meaning SpEd is not either. Yet even when you set those significant revenue streams aside, the average district actually spends more from their own coffers on poor and minority students than on others. I’m surprised. And this is true most of all in the richest and most segregated school districts. Huh. You see how every time you goad me to find cites, it ends up being worse for your case than ever? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1283 "2018-04-18T00:37:54Z")
It’s still factually false to say that in America, more is spent per capita on non white students vs white students. The reverse is true, as has already been shown. Not average district, not intra district, but in the whole country, per capita, we spend less on educating non white students. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1284 "2018-04-18T01:29:41Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > [Do school districts spend less money on poor and minority students? | Brookings](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/05/25/do-school-districts-spend-less-money-on-poor-and-minority-students/) > > Brookings says you can find such schools. But: > > And: > > And from the study text, linked in the article: > > Aaaand then there’s this: > > So once again federal funding is not included! Meaning SpEd is not either. Yet even when you set those significant revenue streams aside, the average district actually spends more from their own coffers on poor and minority students than on others. I’m surprised. And this is true most of all in the richest and most segregated school districts. Huh. > > You see how every time you goad me to find cites, it ends up being worse for your case than ever? That is the same cite that excludes the to 10% of US students in private and charter schools. Quite handy to exclude a population that probably includes groups that earn ~30%, of all income. Also you do note that you are still claiming something you can’t even define is responsible for the difference. Or are you ever going to be willing to define what “white” is. Because in every single cite you have provided it is purely what the person self-identifies with and in no way relates to ancestor or genetic makeup. How many individuals were counted black, to the the historical US rules asserting that any person with even one ancestor of sub-Saharan-African ancestry is considered black? As we know that you have African ancestry, does the one drop rule apply to you? You still don’t get that you are trying to categorize people into groups and making a claim there is a biological reason which absolutely zero evidence that your assumptions are true. Your are practicing religion, not science. Heck, 30% of those you are putting in the “white” racial bucket have recent African American ancestors according to some dna tests. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1285 "2018-04-18T02:20:54Z")
To the readers actually interested in learning something, Remember that school-finance reforms including the many court-mandated reforms have had an equalizing effect on school spending in the past few decades, and that judging historical performance based on current spending without taking that into the account is only useful if one needs to feel special or need a reason to look down on others. > **[School-Finance-Reform-and-the-Distribution-of-Student-Achievement.pdf](https://irle.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/School-Finance-Reform-and-the-Distribution-of-Student-Achievement.pdf)** > > 1579.72 KB > [@](#): > > Event-study and instrumental variable models reveal that a 20 percent increase in per-pupil spending each year for all 12 years of public school for children from poor families leads to about 0.9 more completed years of education, 25 percent higher earnings, and a 20 percentage-point reduction in the annual incidence of adult poverty; **we find no effects for children from non-poor families**. > **[The Effect of School Finance Reforms on the Distribution of Spending,...](https://www.nber.org/papers/w20118)** > > Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals. But really only placing this here for the benefit of those who arrive on this page due to google searches. Hard to convince someone who can’t even define the category they think provides some form of advantage. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1286 "2018-04-18T05:31:16Z")
Rat avatar: Great! Whiteness and blackness don’t exist. I’m down for that. This means there are no “black” students, and therefore black students cannot be “underserved” by the schools. [wiping hands] Glad that’s solved. Oh wait: Andy wants to talk about reality. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s still factually false to say that in America, more is spent per capita on non white students vs white students. The reverse is true, as has already been shown. Maybe. I’m not sure we have seen an analysis that takes everything into account: federal Title I aid, SpEd, nutrition, tutoring, paying for a kid to take a grade over. But regardless of all that, my original assertion that EE scoffed at specifically denoted intradistrict spending. EE quoted me and said s/he didn’t believe my assertion was true. EE was wrong. Period. I got this app that lets me see all your thoughts, like comic book thought bubbles: “Dammit, he’s got us. But I’ll be damned if I’m going to give that smug fuck the satisfaction of admitting it.” No need to say anything. I got it. 😉 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1287 "2018-04-18T06:45:21Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Rat avatar: Great! Whiteness and blackness don’t exist. I’m down for that. This means there are no “black” students, and therefore black students cannot be “underserved” by the schools. [wiping hands] > > Glad that’s solved. > > Oh wait: Andy wants to talk about reality. > > Maybe. I’m not sure we have seen an analysis that takes everything into account: federal Title I aid, SpEd, nutrition, tutoring, paying for a kid to take a grade over. > > But regardless of all that, my original assertion that EE scoffed at specifically denoted intradistrict spending. EE quoted me and said s/he didn’t believe my assertion was true. EE was wrong. Period. > > I got this app that lets me see all your thoughts, like comic book thought bubbles: > > “Dammit, he’s got us. But I’ll be damned if I’m going to give that smug fuck the satisfaction of admitting it.” > > No need to say anything. I got it. 😉 > > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk If only it was so easy, the social construct of race is very real, and the very real consequences of that racist policy are very very real. As I stated before, money is also a social-construct, which ‘constructed’ through cultural or social practice. A large part of the reason that is still a large issue is because people like you think that when things are made up that they are biological traits. The pain, suffering and impacts of this bigotry will remain until bigots like you die off or reduce in numbers to the point that it cannot impact policy. This is why I can accurately call you a racist, which I can provide a definition for, unlike you and your undefinable truth of "racial superiority. Racist noun “A person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.” You believe that this undefinable “white” race is superior in intelligence, and cannot refute that but obviouslly you will not just stand up an own that you are a racist. Superiority based on _racial_ differentiation is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1288 "2018-04-18T07:56:34Z")
So, I’d like to take a break for a moment from scoring debating points and sincerely ask a question to the non-rabid among you. I will try to be as open-minded as possible. Give me your best hypothesis for what explains this bit from Andy’s accidental cite: > [@](#): > > By age 2, disparities already show between black and white children. Fewer black children demonstrate proficiency in development skills such as receptive vocabulary, expressive vocabulary, matching, early counting, math, color knowledge, numbers and shapes I know you don’t think genetics is a likely explanation. So what does seem more plausible to you? I suppose technically this calls for a “just-so story”. But I honestly don’t think there’s anything wrong with using those, whatever side of the argument you happen to be on. So I won’t fault you for coming up with a plausible hypothetical, even if the evidence for it is lacking. I just want to hear something that doesn’t sound like a huge stretch, something that doesn’t require huge leaps of logic to imagine that it explains these facts about 24-month-olds. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1289 "2018-04-18T09:42:17Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So, I’d like to take a break for a moment from scoring debating points and sincerely ask a question to the non-rabid among you. > > I will try to be as open-minded as possible. Give me your best hypothesis for what explains this bit from Andy’s accidental cite: > > I know you don’t think genetics is a likely explanation. So what does seem more plausible to you? > > I suppose technically this calls for a “just-so story”. But I honestly don’t think there’s anything wrong with using those, whatever side of the argument you happen to be on. So I won’t fault you for coming up with a plausible hypothetical, even if the evidence for it is lacking. I just want to hear something that doesn’t sound like a huge stretch, something that doesn’t require huge leaps of logic to imagine that it explains these facts about 24-month-olds. When there is direct evidence (the Scarr study) against the genetic hypothesis, and zero direct evidence for it, then it’d be illogical to presume the genetic hypothesis is more likely. There could be a million possible explanations – differences in nutrition and/or parenting come to mind most readily. Unlike the genetic explanation, at least those explanations wouldn’t directly conflict with the facts. Also, the glee you take in scoring (nonexistent) debate points about the inferiority of black people pretty much disproves any possibility that you’re simply a humble searcher for the facts, rather than a proud bigot. You’ve got some hatred in you, whether you admit it or not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1290 "2018-04-18T09:55:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When there is direct evidence (the Scarr study) against the genetic hypothesis, and zero direct evidence for it, then it’d be illogical to presume the genetic hypothesis is more likely. There could be a million possible explanations – differences in nutrition and/or parenting come to mind most readily. Unlike the genetic explanation, at least those explanations wouldn’t directly conflict with the facts. > > Also, the glee you take in scoring (nonexistent) debate points about the inferiority of black people pretty much disproves any possibility that you’re simply a humble searcher for the facts, rather than a proud bigot. You’ve got some hatred in you, whether you admit it or not. Forgot lead in the environment as another quite obvious possible explanation for disparities in young children. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1291 "2018-04-18T10:36:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When there is direct evidence (the Scarr study) against the genetic hypothesis, and zero direct evidence for it, then it’d be illogical to presume the genetic hypothesis is more likely. There could be a million possible explanations – differences in nutrition and/or parenting come to mind most readily. Unlike the genetic explanation, at least those explanations wouldn’t directly conflict with the facts. > > Also, the glee you take in scoring (nonexistent) debate points about the inferiority of black people pretty much disproves any possibility that you’re simply a humble searcher for the facts, rather than a proud bigot. You’ve got some hatred in you, whether you admit it or not. I never claimed to be humble. What I enjoy is winning debates. It’s not about relishing the content itself. On Scarr, I think you had better take a look at this: > **[Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study)** > > The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study examined the IQ test scores of 130 black or interracial children adopted by advantaged white families. The aim of the study was to determine the contribution of environmental and genetic factors to the poor performance of black children on IQ tests as compared to white children. The initial study was published in 1976 by Sandra Scarr and Richard A. Weinberg. A follow-up study was published in 1992 by Richard Weinberg, Sandra Scarr and Irwin D. Waldma On me... > [@](#): > > In a 1998 article, Scarr wrote: “The test performance of the Black/Black adoptees [in the study] was not different from that of ordinary Black children reared by their own families in the same area of the country. My colleagues and I reported the data accurately and as fully as possible, and then tried to make the results palatable to environmentally committed colleagues. In retrospect, this was a mistake. The results of the transracial adoption study can be used to support either a genetic difference hypothesis or an environmental difference one (because the children have visible African ancestry). We should have been agnostic on the conclusions […].”[10] Later opinions supported Scarr’s reassessment. For example, one group of authors wrote, “Generally, scholars in the field of intelligence see the evidence from this study . . . as consistent with both environmental and genetic hypotheses for the cause of Group IQ score differences . . .”[11] Sorry. I think you are right though that lead is part of the problem. I have said that repeatedly ITT. But you do understand that from the schools’ perspective, that’s still an innate limitation either way. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1292 "2018-04-18T10:43:21Z")
BTW, if you had seen me goofing around with the little (black, immigrant, Muslim) boys yesterday who live across the hall, you would know it’s so not about hate for me. I heard one of them say to their dad as I was walking away, “He’s a nice dad.” That warmed my heart. But he’s actually quite right: I really am a nice dad! And a nice neighbor. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1293 "2018-04-18T12:00:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I never claimed to be humble. What I enjoy is winning debates. It’s not about relishing the content itself. > > On Scarr, I think you had better take a look at this: > > [Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study) > > Sorry. I think you are right though that lead is part of the problem. I have said that repeatedly ITT. But you do understand that from the schools’ perspective, that’s still an innate limitation either way. I’m not talking about the adoption story (did you miss this earlier? Someone else made the same mistake). Sandra Scarr did more than one study – I’m talking the one that looked at genetic ancestry and intelligence test scores among black children and found absolutely no correlation between how much African/non-African ancestry black kids had and their test scores. I linked it earlier in this thread. I’m not interested in the school policy debate you’re having. The facts tell us that the US spends less on black students than white students, but I’m not an education policy expert and I’m not making any education policy recommendations. Your beef with education policy advocates has nothing to do with anything I’ve posted. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > BTW, if you had seen me goofing around with the little (black, immigrant, Muslim) boys yesterday who live across the hall, you would know it’s so not about hate for me. I heard one of them say to their dad as I was walking away, “He’s a nice dad.” That warmed my heart. But he’s actually quite right: I really am a nice dad! And a nice neighbor. This tells me absolutely nothing about you. People are complex. I’ve known people who were nice to individuals but still said and otherwise indicated hatred and contempt in other circumstances. I served with guys in the Navy who routinely used racial slurs and said hateful things about black people, even that they thought interracial dating was disgusting, but still risked their lives for their black shipmates. Those guys were hateful bigots, even if that doesn’t encompass their entire character. I hope that some of them changed their views over time. You wouldn’t know, quite obviously, if you had hatred or contempt for black or non-white people. Most people with such feelings don’t know it. Your words tell us something about how you truly feel, even if it’s not the whole story. You might be a mostly decent guy who nonetheless has some hidden contempt for black people that you don’t recognize. Only contempt, or similarly negative feelings, could allow someone to so gleefully parade their belief in innate black inferiority. And you’re just bumping up against the facts. The Scarr study (the ancestry, not adoption, one) has never been refuted or disproven. I’d like to see it repeated with modern methods, which are probably more accurate than the older methods from that time. But it’s good solid science, and it’s one of the very few experiments (maybe the only one) that directly tested the African-ancestry/lower-intelligence hypothesis while controlling for race. And it blew that hypothesis out of the water. You strike me as entirely content with the person you are. And that person appears to include some hidden depths of bigoted contempt or hatred. Everyone can improve themselves – you’ll never catch me saying “I’m not a racist”, because I don’t know. All I can do is strive to not be racist; to not say racist things; to not do racist things. I hope I’m not a racist in any way, and I hope I’m a good person. I try to be, and I probably make mistakes sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1294 "2018-04-18T12:30:23Z")
There are two dumb positions to take: 1. Black kids do worse in schools, AND IT’S ALL THE FAULT OF SCHOOLS! 2. Black kids do worse in schools, AND IT’S BECAUSE THEY’RE GENETICALLY INFERIOR! A lot of school reformers take the first position. (They’ll deny it’s that extreme, but their proposed solutions tend to be premised on that position). Slacker etc. takes the second position (and again may deny it’s that extreme, but it’s like 99% of what he’s arguing for). There’s another position: 3) Black kids do worse in schools, AND IT’S BECAUSE OF A COMPLEX WEB OF SOCIAL AND HISTORICAL FACTORS! A kid who lives in a neighborhood with frequent midnight police presence is going to grow up with an unstable sleep schedule. A kid whose parents grew up in generational poverty is going to have less access to enriching resources like travel-based vacations. A kid whose black parents attended historically racist schools is going to absorb different messages about education than those absorbed by a kid whose white parents attended historically racist schools. A kid whose dad is incarcerated is going to have a different home environment from that of a kid whose dad is not incarcerated. A kid whose uncle is beat up by the police for “jaywalking” at midnight is going to have a different attitude toward authority than a kid whose familial interactions with the police have been positive. And so on and so on. I see the achievement gap every day. When I sit down and talk with kids about their home lives, there’s no mystery about the achievement gap to me. But just because I can understand its causes doesn’t mean I can fix all of them. There’s no need for magical thinking, here. “Just So Stories” aren’t necessary. But that doesn’t mean we have to fall into the trap of the education reformers who think that if we just got teachers to care more, the achievement gap would disappear. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1295 "2018-04-18T12:45:04Z")
We obviously agree on that. The environmental factors you laid out: how much of that would you expect to manifest in the first 24 months of life? Can we focus on that bit of data for a minute? Are you a teacher then, BTW? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1296 "2018-04-18T13:03:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > …What I enjoy is winning debates… That… is honestly really sad. Dude, you can be better than that. You really can. . ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1297 "2018-04-18T14:29:00Z")
> [@andros](#): > > That… is honestly really sad. Dude, you can be better than that. You really can. > . It is more sad when one notices that it has been almost a year of “winning” in a thread that he sandbagged himself. (Not only by putting the thread in the Pit by having a bit of self awareness of what a bigot he is, but also by himself pointing at evidence about Hispanics that in reality showed what racists or idiots guys like Murray and others are). And to top it off: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Sorry. I think you are right though that lead is part of the problem. I have said that repeatedly ITT. Never mind that others are right, he will ignore even what he claims to say to repeat later again and again the wrong claims about magical genes or unrelated school issues because… he has to “win”. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1298 "2018-04-18T16:18:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You see how every time you goad me to find cites, it ends up being worse for your case than ever? Well, here’s your actual claim (quote marks around it because those are your actual words): “black schoolchildren have significantly more money spent on their education than do white children in the same district.” So does your cite support that assertion? None of the phrases you quoted support it. (I shouldn’t have to but will point out that “poor and minority” =/= “black”). Also, I didn’t bother to read your cite, but the bit you quoted says $65 dollars (I presume that’s per year), which seems to fall short of the “significant” metric. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1299 "2018-04-18T16:27:46Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I never claimed to be humble. What I enjoy is winning debates. You should try being right; that would make winning debates easier. So far as I can tell your current approach is to be wrong, but to bury your opponents in so much stupid shit that they get exasperated and stop responding to you. Which is “winning” only as a stupid person would define the term. I think your other tactic is to change your argument and then not tell anyone. Like for instance where your argument went from “black schoolchildren have significantly more money spent on their education than do white children in the same district.” to “poor and minority students may get as much as $65 more per year spent on them in some districts.” Or like earlier I tricked you into admitting that there was absolutely no scientific proof whatsoever of a genetic basis for race IQ differences, and you accepted that. But now you’re arguing that differences can’t be explained by environment (so that they must be genetic). But you already lost that debate, to me. Why are you bringing it up again? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052/1300 "2018-04-18T18:01:42Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > The environmental factors you laid out: how much of that would you expect to manifest in the first 24 months of life? Can we focus on that bit of data for a minute? If you are seriously asking the question of whether environmental factors can manifest in the first 24 months of life, the answer is yes. In fact, pre-birth and even pre-conception environmental factors can manifest in that time period. Simple example–fetal alcohol syndrome. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/interesting-podcast-conversation-between-sam-harris-and-charles-murray-of-bell-curve-fame/785052.md?page=66)